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	<title>Comments for Metric Views</title>
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	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:30:41 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by philh</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20220</link>
		<dc:creator>philh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:30:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20220</guid>
		<description>Re the statement by the Transport Minister in July 2002:

&quot; ... it would not be appropriate to fix a date for converting speed limit and distance signs while there is still likely to be a significant proportion of drivers for whom the change could be potentially confusing.&quot;

Well, what about the confusion for metric educated young adults who were never taught Imperial? Don&#039;t they deserve some consideration also?

If the change is not going to happen for a long time to come things will only get worse.

Furthermore if the protracted delay means metric educated drivers gradually get used to imperial then they too will suffer the alledged confusion when the change finally happens.

If the change is going to happen at all (as it should for all the reasons given in the article and more) it must happen sooner rather than later. No sensible analysis can justify putting it off in the hope that some magical transformation will occur in the minds of the British driver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re the statement by the Transport Minister in July 2002:</p>
<p>&#8221; &#8230; it would not be appropriate to fix a date for converting speed limit and distance signs while there is still likely to be a significant proportion of drivers for whom the change could be potentially confusing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well, what about the confusion for metric educated young adults who were never taught Imperial? Don&#8217;t they deserve some consideration also?</p>
<p>If the change is not going to happen for a long time to come things will only get worse.</p>
<p>Furthermore if the protracted delay means metric educated drivers gradually get used to imperial then they too will suffer the alledged confusion when the change finally happens.</p>
<p>If the change is going to happen at all (as it should for all the reasons given in the article and more) it must happen sooner rather than later. No sensible analysis can justify putting it off in the hope that some magical transformation will occur in the minds of the British driver.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by Mark Preston</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20219</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20219</guid>
		<description>When I queried devolved powers I was told that although management of highways is devolved any legislation covering units of measure is not. This remains the responsibility of Westminster as a retained power and governs what is displayed on UK road signs in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Having said that, part of the devolution legislation states that devolved powers may be transferred to these countries if they are requested having been agreed on by the assembly in question.

In fact in Wales there is currently a move to ask for more powers to be devolved, this is supported by some parties in Cardiff and in Westminster. If the Welsh Assembly can agree on it in a vote a request will be made to Westminster who will then decide whether or not to devolve the powers.

Northern Ireland is interesting in that it shares a land border with a country that has metric road signage. There is also an interesting view that Sinn Fein, wishing to bring Northern Ireland closer to the Republic might consider metrication of road signage in Northern Ireland a small step in that direction and might wish to pursue it. Presumably that wouldn&#039;t go down too well with Unionists in the assembly ??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I queried devolved powers I was told that although management of highways is devolved any legislation covering units of measure is not. This remains the responsibility of Westminster as a retained power and governs what is displayed on UK road signs in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.</p>
<p>Having said that, part of the devolution legislation states that devolved powers may be transferred to these countries if they are requested having been agreed on by the assembly in question.</p>
<p>In fact in Wales there is currently a move to ask for more powers to be devolved, this is supported by some parties in Cardiff and in Westminster. If the Welsh Assembly can agree on it in a vote a request will be made to Westminster who will then decide whether or not to devolve the powers.</p>
<p>Northern Ireland is interesting in that it shares a land border with a country that has metric road signage. There is also an interesting view that Sinn Fein, wishing to bring Northern Ireland closer to the Republic might consider metrication of road signage in Northern Ireland a small step in that direction and might wish to pursue it. Presumably that wouldn&#8217;t go down too well with Unionists in the assembly ??</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20217</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 07:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20217</guid>
		<description>The Department for Transport web site has a page (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/howroadsaremanagedintheuk) that gives a brief description of how roads are managed in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.

Do the Scottish Executive, the Transport Directorate of the Welsh Assembly, and the Roads Service of the Department for Regional Development have the authority to replace distance and/or speed limit signs in Imperial with signs using only metric units? What are the issues and limitations associated with the scope of their authority in this regard?

I should have written that the safety argument in Northern Ireland would focus on speed limit signs with distance signs added in for the sake of consistency.

It has been argued by some in the past (as I recall) that a piecemeal approach to metricating road signs might “backfire” in the sense that, say, convincing the government in Northern Island to metricate road signs would take the pressure off the government in London to finish the job in the rest of the UK since the most forceful argument in terms of road safety would have been taken away.

Given how intransigent DfT and the government in London have been on this matter, I confess I am swayed by those (see Michael Glass’ post) who argue a “bottom up” approach that begins with, say, just distance signs (as Ireland did initially) and in the parts of the UK outside of England, with arguments tailored to each region (safety in Northern Ireland; language in Wales; local independence and perhaps promoting “forward thinking” in Scotland, etc.)

This would not be the first time a “divide and conquer” strategy leads to ultimate success!

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Department for Transport web site has a page (<a href="http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/howroadsaremanagedintheuk" rel="nofollow">http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/howroadsaremanagedintheuk</a>) that gives a brief description of how roads are managed in Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland.</p>
<p>Do the Scottish Executive, the Transport Directorate of the Welsh Assembly, and the Roads Service of the Department for Regional Development have the authority to replace distance and/or speed limit signs in Imperial with signs using only metric units? What are the issues and limitations associated with the scope of their authority in this regard?</p>
<p>I should have written that the safety argument in Northern Ireland would focus on speed limit signs with distance signs added in for the sake of consistency.</p>
<p>It has been argued by some in the past (as I recall) that a piecemeal approach to metricating road signs might “backfire” in the sense that, say, convincing the government in Northern Island to metricate road signs would take the pressure off the government in London to finish the job in the rest of the UK since the most forceful argument in terms of road safety would have been taken away.</p>
<p>Given how intransigent DfT and the government in London have been on this matter, I confess I am swayed by those (see Michael Glass’ post) who argue a “bottom up” approach that begins with, say, just distance signs (as Ireland did initially) and in the parts of the UK outside of England, with arguments tailored to each region (safety in Northern Ireland; language in Wales; local independence and perhaps promoting “forward thinking” in Scotland, etc.)</p>
<p>This would not be the first time a “divide and conquer” strategy leads to ultimate success!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by John Frewen-Lord</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20213</link>
		<dc:creator>John Frewen-Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 17:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20213</guid>
		<description>It is very interesting that this article noted that it cost Portsmouth £100 a sign for over 3000 20 mph signs.  As this article pointed out, they involve a completely new post, which has to be drilled through a hard paved surface, and then cemented in.  This total cost is in line with what I dsicovered when I did some research on this subject a little while ago, where a number of new signs in connection with a new road project cost under £100 each (as paid by the  contractor).  I also discovered that the actual new sign itself involves an adhesive sign applied to a plain galvanised metal plate (circular, square, rectangulat or triangular, depending on what type of sign it is).

The actual adhesive sign is but a small part of the total cost of a complete new sign (£100 in Portsmouth&#039;s case).  It should therefore be not too expensive to apply an adhesive km/h sign over the existing mph sign - I estimate a total cost of under £50 per sign, including labour.  The &#039;stick-on&#039; solution is one I have always proposed as being fast and cost-effective, based on Canada&#039;s experience.  As new signs are made the same way (i.e. an adhesive sign on a metal plate), the finished result is no different - the km/h sign is simply applied over the existing mph sign.

The £1400 per sign that is usually trotted out is therefore utter nonsense (and my MP, chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and who therefore should know better, has actually trotted out an even higher figure when I wrote to him on this subject).   

These 20 mph signs have proliferated quite a lot, and there must be many local councils who can supply the cost of the ones they have installed.  If they were asked how much these costs were, ostensibly in finding how much your local council is spending on these signs, the answer might just be on the low side of their actual cost - which of course would be to our advantage.

The total cost of coverting the UK&#039;s road signs to metruc will be mere petty cash when looked at the total cost of road taxes and highway expenditure, yet the economic case for completing metrication in the UK (and the US) cannot be ignored for much longer.  We need to make our MPs (whoever they after the next election) fully aware of this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very interesting that this article noted that it cost Portsmouth £100 a sign for over 3000 20 mph signs.  As this article pointed out, they involve a completely new post, which has to be drilled through a hard paved surface, and then cemented in.  This total cost is in line with what I dsicovered when I did some research on this subject a little while ago, where a number of new signs in connection with a new road project cost under £100 each (as paid by the  contractor).  I also discovered that the actual new sign itself involves an adhesive sign applied to a plain galvanised metal plate (circular, square, rectangulat or triangular, depending on what type of sign it is).</p>
<p>The actual adhesive sign is but a small part of the total cost of a complete new sign (£100 in Portsmouth&#8217;s case).  It should therefore be not too expensive to apply an adhesive km/h sign over the existing mph sign &#8211; I estimate a total cost of under £50 per sign, including labour.  The &#8217;stick-on&#8217; solution is one I have always proposed as being fast and cost-effective, based on Canada&#8217;s experience.  As new signs are made the same way (i.e. an adhesive sign on a metal plate), the finished result is no different &#8211; the km/h sign is simply applied over the existing mph sign.</p>
<p>The £1400 per sign that is usually trotted out is therefore utter nonsense (and my MP, chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, and who therefore should know better, has actually trotted out an even higher figure when I wrote to him on this subject).   </p>
<p>These 20 mph signs have proliferated quite a lot, and there must be many local councils who can supply the cost of the ones they have installed.  If they were asked how much these costs were, ostensibly in finding how much your local council is spending on these signs, the answer might just be on the low side of their actual cost &#8211; which of course would be to our advantage.</p>
<p>The total cost of coverting the UK&#8217;s road signs to metruc will be mere petty cash when looked at the total cost of road taxes and highway expenditure, yet the economic case for completing metrication in the UK (and the US) cannot be ignored for much longer.  We need to make our MPs (whoever they after the next election) fully aware of this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by Richard Ational</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20212</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Ational</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 10:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20212</guid>
		<description>A while back I was involved in an orienteering exercise with a group of young people. Whilst most were more than comfortable with using Ordnance Survey maps, metric distances, elevations, etc. there was one who raised some questions about the relationship between time and distance and asked, more than once, why kilometres and not miles were being used. The neutral explanation I gave was that the map was scaled in metric, so that was what had to be used. This prompted the question as to why that was the case when, on road signs, etc. distance was shown in miles as well as the statement that they weren’t that good at maths in any case.

Here was a classic example of the effect that the political establishment’s contradictory stance on metrication is having on education. With one breath they claim that a good knowledge of science and mathematics is vitally important to the future prosperity of the nation and yet they signal through their actions that the system of measurement used in educating the young in such subjects is not valued by society as a whole. It’s about time that government grasped the nettle and demonstrated that they were willing to forego political appeasement in favour of acting in the best interests of the country. Also, in the matter of metrication, they need ensure that they have far greater support from that most conservative and technophobic of institutions, the Civil Service.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A while back I was involved in an orienteering exercise with a group of young people. Whilst most were more than comfortable with using Ordnance Survey maps, metric distances, elevations, etc. there was one who raised some questions about the relationship between time and distance and asked, more than once, why kilometres and not miles were being used. The neutral explanation I gave was that the map was scaled in metric, so that was what had to be used. This prompted the question as to why that was the case when, on road signs, etc. distance was shown in miles as well as the statement that they weren’t that good at maths in any case.</p>
<p>Here was a classic example of the effect that the political establishment’s contradictory stance on metrication is having on education. With one breath they claim that a good knowledge of science and mathematics is vitally important to the future prosperity of the nation and yet they signal through their actions that the system of measurement used in educating the young in such subjects is not valued by society as a whole. It’s about time that government grasped the nettle and demonstrated that they were willing to forego political appeasement in favour of acting in the best interests of the country. Also, in the matter of metrication, they need ensure that they have far greater support from that most conservative and technophobic of institutions, the Civil Service.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by Michael Glass</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20211</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Glass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Mar 2010 05:10:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20211</guid>
		<description>Look at the DFT as a road block and work out how to get around it. Don&#039;t decry it, dodge it. Write to every member of the Northern Ireland parliament about changing the road signs. Write to every member of the Tynwald to urge the Isle of Man to switch (their big race already uses kilometres). Approach the Channel Island Governments with the same request. One of them might be willing to break ranks.

Approach the Welsh Assembly Government and point out the advantage to the Welsh language of using metric distances. Ditto with the Scottish Parliament. Be flexible.  Changing distances and changing speed limits would be desirable, but moving of one and not the other might be easier that moving for both to be moved at once.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Look at the DFT as a road block and work out how to get around it. Don&#8217;t decry it, dodge it. Write to every member of the Northern Ireland parliament about changing the road signs. Write to every member of the Tynwald to urge the Isle of Man to switch (their big race already uses kilometres). Approach the Channel Island Governments with the same request. One of them might be willing to break ranks.</p>
<p>Approach the Welsh Assembly Government and point out the advantage to the Welsh language of using metric distances. Ditto with the Scottish Parliament. Be flexible.  Changing distances and changing speed limits would be desirable, but moving of one and not the other might be easier that moving for both to be moved at once.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20209</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 20:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20209</guid>
		<description>In addition to the &quot;knock on&quot; effect of the Imperial road signage by perpetuating Imperial in other areas of life, there is also the issue of safety for UK drivers in Northern Ireland who cross over into the Republic given that they are not used to speed limit signs in metric and have to try to make out the smaller km/h markings on their speedometers.

Perhaps the DfT could take a page out of the Irish playbook and begin to convert distance signs to metric. However, if they did even that, they would be acknowledging (if only implicitly) a path to full conversion of all road signs. That clearly will not happen until a new government and a new minister at DfT are put in place.

Why should the UK remain so out of step in this regard compared to every other country in the EU? And has been pointed out elsewhere, both the Irish Republic and all Commonwealth countries other than the UK have already converted their road signs to metric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to the &#8220;knock on&#8221; effect of the Imperial road signage by perpetuating Imperial in other areas of life, there is also the issue of safety for UK drivers in Northern Ireland who cross over into the Republic given that they are not used to speed limit signs in metric and have to try to make out the smaller km/h markings on their speedometers.</p>
<p>Perhaps the DfT could take a page out of the Irish playbook and begin to convert distance signs to metric. However, if they did even that, they would be acknowledging (if only implicitly) a path to full conversion of all road signs. That clearly will not happen until a new government and a new minister at DfT are put in place.</p>
<p>Why should the UK remain so out of step in this regard compared to every other country in the EU? And has been pointed out elsewhere, both the Irish Republic and all Commonwealth countries other than the UK have already converted their road signs to metric.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by George Carty</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20208</link>
		<dc:creator>George Carty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 19:27:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20208</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the DfT are hoping to dodge the fury of the Sun and the Daily Mail??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the DfT are hoping to dodge the fury of the Sun and the Daily Mail??</p>
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		<title>Comment on Is the DfT part of the Government? by The Glob</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/03/is-the-dft-part-of-the-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20207</link>
		<dc:creator>The Glob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Mar 2010 15:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=883#comment-20207</guid>
		<description>The DfT&#039;s continued opposition to metric road signs is baffling.  What are the DfT hoping to achieve by continuing to resist this change?

We will have a fully metric road network one day, this has to happen eventually.  Hopefully this will happen soon, not another 38 years from now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The DfT&#8217;s continued opposition to metric road signs is baffling.  What are the DfT hoping to achieve by continuing to resist this change?</p>
<p>We will have a fully metric road network one day, this has to happen eventually.  Hopefully this will happen soon, not another 38 years from now.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Will the new Parliament be more pro-metric? by Mark preston</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2010/01/will-the-new-parliament-be-more-pro-metric/comment-page-1/#comment-20200</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:15:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=851#comment-20200</guid>
		<description>With a hung parliament appearing to be the likely outcome of the forthcoming general election perhaps now is an ideal opportunity for metrication to come to the fore.

Assuming that neither Labour nor the Conservatives win enough seats for a clear majority they will either need to rule as a minority or more likely form a coalition with a junior partner.

Let us assume that the most likely candidate for junior partner is the Liberal Democrats (fairly supportive of metrication). They will want a number of concessions from the other party if they are to offer their support.

I imagine that they will be in a strong position to request certain provisions - changes to voting system, senior cabinet post(s), university funding etc. What if they also demand that the government makes a statement that they will finally complete the process of metrication here in the UK ?

I don&#039;t imagine that either Labour or the Conservatives would allow a possible coalition to collapse on such a demand. They would rather bite the bullet and form a coalition - it is not such a point of strong opinion in either party.

Therefore, could a hung parliament and a Lab-Lib or Con-Lib coalition result in progress in this area, I don&#039;t think we could rule it out although pressure would perhaps need to be exerted on parties ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With a hung parliament appearing to be the likely outcome of the forthcoming general election perhaps now is an ideal opportunity for metrication to come to the fore.</p>
<p>Assuming that neither Labour nor the Conservatives win enough seats for a clear majority they will either need to rule as a minority or more likely form a coalition with a junior partner.</p>
<p>Let us assume that the most likely candidate for junior partner is the Liberal Democrats (fairly supportive of metrication). They will want a number of concessions from the other party if they are to offer their support.</p>
<p>I imagine that they will be in a strong position to request certain provisions &#8211; changes to voting system, senior cabinet post(s), university funding etc. What if they also demand that the government makes a statement that they will finally complete the process of metrication here in the UK ?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t imagine that either Labour or the Conservatives would allow a possible coalition to collapse on such a demand. They would rather bite the bullet and form a coalition &#8211; it is not such a point of strong opinion in either party.</p>
<p>Therefore, could a hung parliament and a Lab-Lib or Con-Lib coalition result in progress in this area, I don&#8217;t think we could rule it out although pressure would perhaps need to be exerted on parties ?</p>
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