Comments for Metric Views

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Ray

Ray — Sat, 18 May 2013 12:57:50 +0000

Two of the arguments of metric opponents against metrication is that imperial and all of its variations is it time honoured and that metric has been forced on the population against their will.

I don’t know where the wand originated and by what nation, but the fact is a decimal measuring system close to modern metric goes back about 1000 years, showing that metric is just as time honoured and natural.

It also shows that conquering powers forced a change over from this early metric system to the pre-imperial of Continental Europe. The very thing in reverse that the present opposition is complaining about. The conclusion being that metric is more British than imperial and imperial was forced on Britain by outsiders not the other way around.

Comment on DfT guilty of making unfounded claims by Ray

Ray — Sat, 18 May 2013 12:39:55 +0000

This is all very interesting, but not surprising. The question now is, what do we do with such information? How can we make this an issue to get the ball rolling to complete metrication?

I feel no matter what lies the managers of the DfT have spoken concerning the issue, they will still resist metrication. What we need to do as a first step is to push hard for removing any laws that make metric illegal on the roads. This is worse than not metricating. With a reform of the laws, we can encourage those who want to use metric to do so without fear of having signs damaged.

Is there anyone in the media that supports metrication enough to publish an article? What media outlets are metric friendly? The only way we can move forward on this issue is with support. Who supports us strongly enough to make a difference? Anyone in Parliament? What about Lord Howe?

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Wild Bill

Wild Bill — Thu, 16 May 2013 22:44:53 +0000

Having said all that about the ‘wand’ (very interesting, I didn’t know about that before), it must be noted that if the wand was part of the Anglo Saxon weights and measures system, then surely it too is an import! An import from about the 6th century maybe, but an import all the same.

The Romans had left, and in came the Saxons, Jutes and Angles bringing their measuring systems with them. Strange then that pre-metric Germany wasn’t still using a derivative system based on decimals if the Saxons, Angles and Jutes already had such a system that far back.

Unless of course, you’re suggesting that the Anglo Saxon invaders developed their decimal wand-based system after they got to Britain? In which case the people left back in “the old country” would never have heard of it.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Matt Smitt

Matt Smitt — Wed, 15 May 2013 11:05:44 +0000

John Frewen-Lord is maybe correct, Mr Neece is just a wind up merchant, he is certainly no historian thats for sure.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by BrianAC

BrianAC — Wed, 15 May 2013 10:25:40 +0000

@Philip
I find it very strange, not to say bizarre that so many large organisations (including government) take this chicken and egg attitude. “No one else is using it so we won’t; we are not using so others won’t either”.
Now, if no large, public sponsored organisation will start the ball rolling then how do the general populace start using it? As the general populace don’t see it, they cannot start using it, therefore the big organisations won’t start using it … so it goes on add infinitem.
Dual labelling will do little as the vast majority will continue to use what is ‘familiar’ to them so the new will never come to the fore.
I can’t myself start using it because my friends don’t (and won’t), they can’t use it because I don’t know I want to.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Ray

Ray — Wed, 15 May 2013 01:42:38 +0000

John,

I don’t think James Neece came here to wind us up. I think he came here out of anger and frustration. It is obvious from his post that his personal resistance to metrication is failing and he is lashing out at the very people he blames for making his life miserable.

If you look at the questions I posed about encountering metric everywhere in one’s life, it has to frustrating to have to pretend the metric doesn’t really exist or to have constantly convert every metric dimension to imperial. I can’t imagine having to do that all day.

One would think it would make more sense just to adopt and go with the flow. But, some people would rather get angry and blame others.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Ray

Ray — Wed, 15 May 2013 01:35:30 +0000

Jake,

The concept of a base 10 decimal system did not start with John Wilkins. It goes back further to pre-Norman Britain. It was the Norman French, and other European invaders that brought the ancestor of imperial to the UK. Such hypocrisy to bad mouth Europeans for bringing metric to the UK and then support a more ancient system that was forced on the UK by the ancestors of modern Europeans.

I’m sure everyone is familiar with the term wand. It is in reality a pre-Norman unit of length equal to about a modern metre and formed part of a decimal measuring system similar to the one John Wilkins came up with.

http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/wand-954704/1/20

In the Anglo Saxon language the word Wand was a pre- Norman unit of length used in the British Isles equal to approximately the modern metre, apparently dating from an early use as a yardstick. The old English unit of 1007 millimetres was called a ‘wand’, and although the ‘yard’ was created to replace the wand the wand was still used for some centuries because of its convenience as part of an old English decimal system that included:

10 digits (base of long finger) about 20 millimetres
10 digits = 1 small span (span of thumb and forefinger) 200 millimetres
10 small spans = 1 armstretch (1 fathom from finger tip to finger tip) about 2 metres 10 fathoms = 1 chain about 20 metres
10 chains = 1 furlong about 200 metres
10 furlongs = 1 thus-hund of about 2000 metres

The wand that has survived today as part of folklore may in fact be a rendition of the ancient British length unit. Thus a true wand would be a metre in length and not 30 cm.

Once the yard was fully established, the Wand came to be known as the ‘yard and the hand’, and then it disappeared, either slowly or by being banned by law by the Normans.

I believe that John Wilkins was aware of the ancient decimal system used in pre-Norman Britain and made an attempt to restore it. But it took the descendants of the Normans who brought Babylonian units to Britain to bring an updated version of historic British units to the world. In more ways than one, metric is truly British in origin.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Philip

Philip — Tue, 14 May 2013 21:47:38 +0000

The British Heart Foundation – perhaps there might be progress before Christmas

Heart Matters, a magazine produced by the British Heart Foundation regularly has recipes which only show Calories. The latest edition also contains an article with this inKorrect symbol: Kcal shown many times.
Link: http://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters-online/may-june-2013/nutrition/perfect-portions.aspx

I wrote to the editor pointing out not only the wrong symbol but also explained the need to give energy values in kilojoules (kJ). I provided the example of the Asda packet.

The reply is below:
“Thank you for your email to the British Heart Foundation.
At present, the term kilojoules is not commonly used by the majority of our readers, nor are these the units that are used on the front of pack labels they use to inform their food purchases. Which is why we referred to calories in our article on portion sizes.

However, we are aware of the European regulation and change to use kilojoules for nutritional information on packaging and as this begins to be implemented more widely by manufacturers and retailers we will also play our part in helping consumers to understand what this means. In addition to this, once the thresholds and format for front of pack nutritional information have been confirmed by the department of health, we will be using these to present the nutritional information that accompanies our recipes. This will include information on their energy content presented in kilojoules.”

This raises a query, when will the Department of Health confirm the format for front of pack information? I thought that a voluntary agreement has already been sorted out.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Jake

Jake — Tue, 14 May 2013 16:48:33 +0000

Metric Views has heard from Mr Neece before, on the thread re London 2012, for example, where he also implied that the UK move towards the adoption of modern metric units of measurement is a European or EU plot, a claim refuted by Erithacus.

Not only was the proposal for a decimal (metric) system of measurement first proposed by a Briton (Bishop Wilkins) in the 17th century, but more metric units are named after British scientists than scientists of any other country in recognition of their contribution to the metric system and, as pointed out above, the remaining Imperial units in use today are anything but British in origin.

The metric system is British through and through.

Comment on Joules – rare but minor progress for metrication by Erithacus

Erithacus — Mon, 13 May 2013 17:30:53 +0000

@WJG

Annex XV begins as follows:

“ANNEX XV
EXPRESSION AND PRESENTATION OF NUTRITION DECLARATION
The units of measurement to be used in the nutrition declaration for energy (kilojoules (kJ) and kilocalories (kcal)) and mass (grams (g), milligrams (mg) or micrograms (?g)) and the order of presentation of the information, as appropriate,
shall be the following.” It then lists kJ/kcal (in that order of precedence).

So there is no doubt that both are required. In any case the UK could not (legally) override a mandatory EU requirement.