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	<title>Comments on: End of imperial-only restriction signs</title>
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	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: philh</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-20085</link>
		<dc:creator>philh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Jan 2010 09:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-20085</guid>
		<description>I am inclined to the view that our failure to convert road signs are a major factor in the UK population not fully embracing metric.

The opinion of young people varies but they are generally conscious of the disparity between what they are taught in school and what they encounter outside the classroom. They have grown up with imperial road signs and have adapted to them. They may not have any appetite for the change if they don&#039;t value their education especially in mathematics and science.

This gives the lie to the broad assumption by the DfT that the mental preparedness will take care of itself as new generations of drivers populate our roads.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am inclined to the view that our failure to convert road signs are a major factor in the UK population not fully embracing metric.</p>
<p>The opinion of young people varies but they are generally conscious of the disparity between what they are taught in school and what they encounter outside the classroom. They have grown up with imperial road signs and have adapted to them. They may not have any appetite for the change if they don&#8217;t value their education especially in mathematics and science.</p>
<p>This gives the lie to the broad assumption by the DfT that the mental preparedness will take care of itself as new generations of drivers populate our roads.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Joy</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-20084</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Joy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-20084</guid>
		<description>After wondering for many years why the UK is so tardy in switching to a system that is favoured by so many, many countries, I did my own investigations. 
When I heard that the results of a survey in England were to retain MPH on road signs, especially by younger people, I decided to dig deeper.
My opinion is that the culprit is our friend Jeremy Clarkson and his popular TV program &#039;Top Gear&#039;, where he stresses Imperial units and totally disregards metric measures as if they don&#039;t exist - even on trips outside the UK.
So it&#039;s easy to put two and two together and you can see Jeremy&#039;s formula of Fun = Imperial Units, and any young person will soon forget what he&#039;s taught in school about the metric system being the preferred system.
The US do the same with their &#039;Mythbusters&#039; program, where complicated calculations are made to look easy using their non-decimal system, and no mention at all of SI units.
So until someone produces a fun show that promotes the metric system, we will always have the brakes put hard on when it comes to metrication in the UK or the US. Fortunately, we did not have these trouble-makers around when we moved to full metrication 40 years ago.
Mike Joy
Perth, WA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After wondering for many years why the UK is so tardy in switching to a system that is favoured by so many, many countries, I did my own investigations.<br />
When I heard that the results of a survey in England were to retain MPH on road signs, especially by younger people, I decided to dig deeper.<br />
My opinion is that the culprit is our friend Jeremy Clarkson and his popular TV program &#8216;Top Gear&#8217;, where he stresses Imperial units and totally disregards metric measures as if they don&#8217;t exist &#8211; even on trips outside the UK.<br />
So it&#8217;s easy to put two and two together and you can see Jeremy&#8217;s formula of Fun = Imperial Units, and any young person will soon forget what he&#8217;s taught in school about the metric system being the preferred system.<br />
The US do the same with their &#8216;Mythbusters&#8217; program, where complicated calculations are made to look easy using their non-decimal system, and no mention at all of SI units.<br />
So until someone produces a fun show that promotes the metric system, we will always have the brakes put hard on when it comes to metrication in the UK or the US. Fortunately, we did not have these trouble-makers around when we moved to full metrication 40 years ago.<br />
Mike Joy<br />
Perth, WA</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Glass</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19936</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Glass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19936</guid>
		<description>As there is some movement on road signs, this might be the time to push for revising the law that anti-metric campaigners have used to stop people using metric signs. That change would discourage zealots from defacing signs on the pretext that they do not comply with the law.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As there is some movement on road signs, this might be the time to push for revising the law that anti-metric campaigners have used to stop people using metric signs. That change would discourage zealots from defacing signs on the pretext that they do not comply with the law.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19927</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19927</guid>
		<description>“METRIC signs are to be placed on Britain’s roads at a cost of at least £3million to end the chaos caused by foreign drivers” headlined the Daily Express on 20 October. Or, looked at another way, “METRIC signs are to be placed on Britain’s roads … because the UK failed to carry out the conversion when first proposed in 1973”.

Putting this figure of £3 million in the context of Government expenditure, I noted this in today’s London Evening Standard:

“£2 million cost of delay of house sale
The Government’s delay in selling the Belgravia house last occupied by David Blunkett could cost taxpayers £2 million. Mr Blunkett was forced to resign in 2005 but stayed in the house until 2007.”

And, as Robin pointed out in the “Today” programme, the metric signs will cover their costs  by reducing damage to bridges and delays to rail passengers and other road users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“METRIC signs are to be placed on Britain’s roads at a cost of at least £3million to end the chaos caused by foreign drivers” headlined the Daily Express on 20 October. Or, looked at another way, “METRIC signs are to be placed on Britain’s roads … because the UK failed to carry out the conversion when first proposed in 1973”.</p>
<p>Putting this figure of £3 million in the context of Government expenditure, I noted this in today’s London Evening Standard:</p>
<p>“£2 million cost of delay of house sale<br />
The Government’s delay in selling the Belgravia house last occupied by David Blunkett could cost taxpayers £2 million. Mr Blunkett was forced to resign in 2005 but stayed in the house until 2007.”</p>
<p>And, as Robin pointed out in the “Today” programme, the metric signs will cover their costs  by reducing damage to bridges and delays to rail passengers and other road users.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Birkby</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19921</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Birkby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19921</guid>
		<description>Derek (2009-10-22) made the point about the UK being the only significant market for right-hand drive cars using imperial measurements. As a matter of fact, I think I am right in saying it is the only country with such a market, as the very many other countries that drive on the left are all metric. This however I think is not relevant as far as it is implied that it is what the motor trade wants, as (i) national markets almost always differ to a slighter or lesser extent anyway and (ii) I would respectfully suggest that this is not the forum to discuss such an issue. (For what it is worth I most definitely think such a switch in Britain would be a lot of pain for very little gain.) Nonetheless, I do think, as I stated in my earlier posts, that metrication - which would be very little (if any) pain for a lot of gain - would undoubtedly ease matters for drivers arriving at a British port as they would not have to worry about converting all the time to imperial while also concentrating on adjusting to the different rules of the road.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Derek (2009-10-22) made the point about the UK being the only significant market for right-hand drive cars using imperial measurements. As a matter of fact, I think I am right in saying it is the only country with such a market, as the very many other countries that drive on the left are all metric. This however I think is not relevant as far as it is implied that it is what the motor trade wants, as (i) national markets almost always differ to a slighter or lesser extent anyway and (ii) I would respectfully suggest that this is not the forum to discuss such an issue. (For what it is worth I most definitely think such a switch in Britain would be a lot of pain for very little gain.) Nonetheless, I do think, as I stated in my earlier posts, that metrication &#8211; which would be very little (if any) pain for a lot of gain &#8211; would undoubtedly ease matters for drivers arriving at a British port as they would not have to worry about converting all the time to imperial while also concentrating on adjusting to the different rules of the road.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19917</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 17:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19917</guid>
		<description>Pat Naughtin has added the following to his earlier comment:

&quot;Our road sign metric transition was similar to the one in Canada except that a Sunday was chosen so we could do things in daylight. For several months beforehand, new signs were put up and covered with a sort of hessian sacking material. All that had to happen on the Sunday (1974 June 1) was to remove the sacking and take away the old signs.


The whiners (called whingers here) had a lovely time with conjectures describing bloodshed on all of our roads – but like their other conjectures these had no basis in fact, in history, or in reality. To quote from the report, Metrication in Australia:
Despite suggestions by people opposed to metrication that ignorance of the meaning of metric speeds would lead to slaughter on the roads, such slaughter did not occur.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat Naughtin has added the following to his earlier comment:</p>
<p>&#8220;Our road sign metric transition was similar to the one in Canada except that a Sunday was chosen so we could do things in daylight. For several months beforehand, new signs were put up and covered with a sort of hessian sacking material. All that had to happen on the Sunday (1974 June 1) was to remove the sacking and take away the old signs.</p>
<p>The whiners (called whingers here) had a lovely time with conjectures describing bloodshed on all of our roads – but like their other conjectures these had no basis in fact, in history, or in reality. To quote from the report, Metrication in Australia:<br />
Despite suggestions by people opposed to metrication that ignorance of the meaning of metric speeds would lead to slaughter on the roads, such slaughter did not occur.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19911</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 10:16:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19911</guid>
		<description>UKMA has received contributions to this debate from two of its contacts abroad.

Pat Naughtin writes from Australia:

“It is interesting to note that changing all road signs in an entire nation can be done in a day – that&#039;s right – in a single day.

It all depends on the method you choose. Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, and Ireland chose successful methods largely by copying each other’s successes. They all chose to change to metric only signs and the job done in a day was the result.

Others have chosen other methods based on simple conjectures or prejudices. The UK chose two methods that have proved to be unsuccessful so far:

1. Design, build, and repair roads all in metric measures while you provide the public with signs based on the metric inch, the metric foot, the metric yard, and the metric mile that were all defined in metric terms in 1959. This truth was hidden from the UK people by an arbitrary decision made at the time of the Thatcher government – it was based on a simple political prejudice that was encapsulated in the phrase &#039;WE have saved the pint and the mile for Britain&#039;.

2 &#039;Dual signs are good for educating the public&#039; is an interesting conjecture that, as far as I can find, has no basis in fact and no precedent in history. It is simply a false conjecture that has always proved to be false wherever its application has been attempted.

These two thought have led to the current situation in the UK. They began to use this prejudice and this conjecture in about 1965 and there are many who still support them even despite their obvious failure after 44 years – so far – and with many more years still to come!

Remember that the alternative is to look at a nation that has made the upgrade in a single day and copy the successful methods that they chose to use.”

You can contact Pat at pat.naughtin@metricationmatters.com, or to get the free &#039;Metrication Matters&#039; newsletter go to:  http://www.metricationmatters.com/newsletter to subscribe.

John Frewen-Lord writes from Canada, adding to his earlier comment on this topic:

“Canada converted all its speed limit signs in one night.  Went to bed, signs were in mph.  Woke up next morning, all were in km/h.  The stick on solution was used - very cheap, very fast, and very effective.  Most lasted until they needed to be replaced for other reasons.
 
When you consider Canada&#039;s vastness, and the fact that every road has speed limit signs by the million (roads 60 km/h and under by law have to have signs every 500 m [exception - blanket &#039;50 km/h unless signed otherwise&#039; signs when entering a metropolis], while those roads over 60 km/h had to be signed every 1 km, including freeways), this was quite some achievement.”</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>UKMA has received contributions to this debate from two of its contacts abroad.</p>
<p>Pat Naughtin writes from Australia:</p>
<p>“It is interesting to note that changing all road signs in an entire nation can be done in a day – that&#8217;s right – in a single day.</p>
<p>It all depends on the method you choose. Australia, New Zealand, India, South Africa, and Ireland chose successful methods largely by copying each other’s successes. They all chose to change to metric only signs and the job done in a day was the result.</p>
<p>Others have chosen other methods based on simple conjectures or prejudices. The UK chose two methods that have proved to be unsuccessful so far:</p>
<p>1. Design, build, and repair roads all in metric measures while you provide the public with signs based on the metric inch, the metric foot, the metric yard, and the metric mile that were all defined in metric terms in 1959. This truth was hidden from the UK people by an arbitrary decision made at the time of the Thatcher government – it was based on a simple political prejudice that was encapsulated in the phrase &#8216;WE have saved the pint and the mile for Britain&#8217;.</p>
<p>2 &#8216;Dual signs are good for educating the public&#8217; is an interesting conjecture that, as far as I can find, has no basis in fact and no precedent in history. It is simply a false conjecture that has always proved to be false wherever its application has been attempted.</p>
<p>These two thought have led to the current situation in the UK. They began to use this prejudice and this conjecture in about 1965 and there are many who still support them even despite their obvious failure after 44 years – so far – and with many more years still to come!</p>
<p>Remember that the alternative is to look at a nation that has made the upgrade in a single day and copy the successful methods that they chose to use.”</p>
<p>You can contact Pat at <a href="mailto:pat.naughtin@metricationmatters.com">pat.naughtin@metricationmatters.com</a>, or to get the free &#8216;Metrication Matters&#8217; newsletter go to:  <a href="http://www.metricationmatters.com/newsletter" rel="nofollow">http://www.metricationmatters.com/newsletter</a> to subscribe.</p>
<p>John Frewen-Lord writes from Canada, adding to his earlier comment on this topic:</p>
<p>“Canada converted all its speed limit signs in one night.  Went to bed, signs were in mph.  Woke up next morning, all were in km/h.  The stick on solution was used &#8211; very cheap, very fast, and very effective.  Most lasted until they needed to be replaced for other reasons.</p>
<p>When you consider Canada&#8217;s vastness, and the fact that every road has speed limit signs by the million (roads 60 km/h and under by law have to have signs every 500 m [exception - blanket '50 km/h unless signed otherwise' signs when entering a metropolis], while those roads over 60 km/h had to be signed every 1 km, including freeways), this was quite some achievement.”</p>
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		<title>By: Mark preston</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19909</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:23:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19909</guid>
		<description>I have thought that perhaps, unintentionally maybe, that this might be the first step to full metrication. If we now accept that weight restriction signs are wholly metric, we now have height and width (and possibly length ?) restrictions in dual units. 

I can see a situation arising in maybe 5 years or so where a decision is made, on the grounds of cost or safety to remove or not replace the old non SI signs. The DfT has stated that dual measure signs for speed and distance are not desirable so how much longer can we have dual height and width restriction signs ? In which case, in 5 - 10 years time feet and inches will disappear from our road signs for good ?

Then an argument can be made for a better understanding of metric measurements, especially the metre. As the yeard and the metre are very similar measures i can see short distances being converted from yards to metres, especially something like the speed humps signs. I live near a junction which has a sign pointing left which states humps for 3/4 mile and a sign pointing right saying 475 yards - anyone know how these two measures relate to each other ??

Then in time we move towards km for longer distances and then finally speed limits in km/h.

I reckon we will eventually see metric road signage by about 2025. It depends perhaps on whether the US &#039;bites the bullet&#039; and decides that it has had enough of imperial measures and makes the switches any time soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have thought that perhaps, unintentionally maybe, that this might be the first step to full metrication. If we now accept that weight restriction signs are wholly metric, we now have height and width (and possibly length ?) restrictions in dual units. </p>
<p>I can see a situation arising in maybe 5 years or so where a decision is made, on the grounds of cost or safety to remove or not replace the old non SI signs. The DfT has stated that dual measure signs for speed and distance are not desirable so how much longer can we have dual height and width restriction signs ? In which case, in 5 &#8211; 10 years time feet and inches will disappear from our road signs for good ?</p>
<p>Then an argument can be made for a better understanding of metric measurements, especially the metre. As the yeard and the metre are very similar measures i can see short distances being converted from yards to metres, especially something like the speed humps signs. I live near a junction which has a sign pointing left which states humps for 3/4 mile and a sign pointing right saying 475 yards &#8211; anyone know how these two measures relate to each other ??</p>
<p>Then in time we move towards km for longer distances and then finally speed limits in km/h.</p>
<p>I reckon we will eventually see metric road signage by about 2025. It depends perhaps on whether the US &#8216;bites the bullet&#8217; and decides that it has had enough of imperial measures and makes the switches any time soon.</p>
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		<title>By: Derek</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19905</link>
		<dc:creator>Derek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 23:07:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19905</guid>
		<description>Several reasons could be found to explain this proposal:

*  ‘Papering over the cracks’. Another attempt by the DfT to sustain the unsustainable – imperial measures on UK road signs.

*  Part of a carefully considered long-term plan by the Department for Transport (DfT) to convert road signage in an efficient, cost-effective and safe manner. Highly unlikely, in view of the DfT’s (and its predecessor the Department of Transport&#039;s) long term hostility to the idea of the changeover, spanning 44 years, thirteen governments, and goodness-knows-how-many Ministers of Transport.

*  “An EU ploy” aka “metrication by stealth” aka “the thin end of the wedge”, all suggestions put forward by MEP Derek Clark in Monday’s Today programme on BBC4. If there is a conspiracy, then MEP Clark should be in a good position to obtain evidence. So far none has been forthcoming.

If we accept ‘papering over the cracks’ as the most likely explanation, then where are the paper hangers at the DfT likely to head for next, now that the concerns relating to cost and safety which have been raised by bridge owners and lorry fleet operators have been addressed?

To Northern Ireland? An increasing proportion of cars crossing the border from the Republic to NI have km/h only speedos, while in the UK several manufacturers, including Mercedes, have introduced mph-only speedos in new models. And there is that famous coastal road which over a short distance crosses the NI/RoI border many times, with consequent changes in speed limit.

To Wales? A recent posting on MetricViews illustrates the cluttered signs that result from imperial’s use of abbreviations, doubled if two languages are used, and also shows the simplicity that results from metric’s use of symbols.

Into the motor trade? The UK is now the only significant market for right-hand drive mph cars. This is a bane for manufacturers, and results in increased costs to motorists, whether buying a new car or attempting to ship a car into or out of the UK.

But if the DfT paper hangers are at a loose end, here is a suggestion for them. How about looking at the inflated estimate of the cost of the changeover produced in 2005? In these financially straightened times, should the changeover really cost per head of population about ten times that of similar schemes in Ireland in 2005 and in Commonwealth countries in the 1980’s and 1990’s?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Several reasons could be found to explain this proposal:</p>
<p>*  ‘Papering over the cracks’. Another attempt by the DfT to sustain the unsustainable – imperial measures on UK road signs.</p>
<p>*  Part of a carefully considered long-term plan by the Department for Transport (DfT) to convert road signage in an efficient, cost-effective and safe manner. Highly unlikely, in view of the DfT’s (and its predecessor the Department of Transport&#8217;s) long term hostility to the idea of the changeover, spanning 44 years, thirteen governments, and goodness-knows-how-many Ministers of Transport.</p>
<p>*  “An EU ploy” aka “metrication by stealth” aka “the thin end of the wedge”, all suggestions put forward by MEP Derek Clark in Monday’s Today programme on BBC4. If there is a conspiracy, then MEP Clark should be in a good position to obtain evidence. So far none has been forthcoming.</p>
<p>If we accept ‘papering over the cracks’ as the most likely explanation, then where are the paper hangers at the DfT likely to head for next, now that the concerns relating to cost and safety which have been raised by bridge owners and lorry fleet operators have been addressed?</p>
<p>To Northern Ireland? An increasing proportion of cars crossing the border from the Republic to NI have km/h only speedos, while in the UK several manufacturers, including Mercedes, have introduced mph-only speedos in new models. And there is that famous coastal road which over a short distance crosses the NI/RoI border many times, with consequent changes in speed limit.</p>
<p>To Wales? A recent posting on MetricViews illustrates the cluttered signs that result from imperial’s use of abbreviations, doubled if two languages are used, and also shows the simplicity that results from metric’s use of symbols.</p>
<p>Into the motor trade? The UK is now the only significant market for right-hand drive mph cars. This is a bane for manufacturers, and results in increased costs to motorists, whether buying a new car or attempting to ship a car into or out of the UK.</p>
<p>But if the DfT paper hangers are at a loose end, here is a suggestion for them. How about looking at the inflated estimate of the cost of the changeover produced in 2005? In these financially straightened times, should the changeover really cost per head of population about ten times that of similar schemes in Ireland in 2005 and in Commonwealth countries in the 1980’s and 1990’s?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Birkby</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/10/end-of-imperial-only-restriction-signs/comment-page-1/#comment-19895</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Birkby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Oct 2009 18:57:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://metricviews.org.uk/?p=504#comment-19895</guid>
		<description>In case I left any readers doubting whether I was condoning breaking speed limits by my earlier comment, I can assure any readers I was not, and I am grateful to John Frewen-Lord for his clarification and remarks on the changeover in Canada. Nevertheless, I do maintain (from experience) that the hardest part is getting used to limits on entering the country (i.e. at ports), especially when coupled with getting used to (or re-acquainting myself with in my case) the different rules of the road, which are markedly different from any of Britain&#039;s neighbours other than Ireland. It is, in other words, a risk that could be diminished by metrication.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case I left any readers doubting whether I was condoning breaking speed limits by my earlier comment, I can assure any readers I was not, and I am grateful to John Frewen-Lord for his clarification and remarks on the changeover in Canada. Nevertheless, I do maintain (from experience) that the hardest part is getting used to limits on entering the country (i.e. at ports), especially when coupled with getting used to (or re-acquainting myself with in my case) the different rules of the road, which are markedly different from any of Britain&#8217;s neighbours other than Ireland. It is, in other words, a risk that could be diminished by metrication.</p>
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