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	<title>Comments on: Traffic Signs Review produces INACTION plan</title>
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	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: Andy Yates</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-20525</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Yates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 May 2010 21:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-20525</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m a big fan of Imperial..... but I have no problem with using metric for heights &amp; widths in road signage as the metre is now more or less universally understood by Joe Publick (even if only as being a yard and a &quot;bit&quot;) and this would aid commonalty with europe.  So I&#039;m with most of you on this.

Speed is a different issue however; few in the UK know &quot;viscerally&quot; what km/h is, and most folks killed on the roads are killed by UK drivers. Also 50 km/h is substantially faster than 30mph so you are factoring in increased pedestrian and RTA injury (almost 10% higher vehicle kinetic energy).  To address this you would need to review all speed limit boundaries, extend 20 mph (32.19 km/h?) zones etc. so it is not as simple as a sign for sign replacement.

Foreign drivers (Ireland not withstanding Dave) already have to cope with driving on the &quot;right&quot; side of the road; signs in mph serve to remind them that they are in a foreign country.  I know this has helped me, in the reverse, when driving in france and faced with a funny looking &quot;50&quot; sign on the wrong side of the road.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a big fan of Imperial&#8230;.. but I have no problem with using metric for heights &amp; widths in road signage as the metre is now more or less universally understood by Joe Publick (even if only as being a yard and a &#8220;bit&#8221;) and this would aid commonalty with europe.  So I&#8217;m with most of you on this.</p>
<p>Speed is a different issue however; few in the UK know &#8220;viscerally&#8221; what km/h is, and most folks killed on the roads are killed by UK drivers. Also 50 km/h is substantially faster than 30mph so you are factoring in increased pedestrian and RTA injury (almost 10% higher vehicle kinetic energy).  To address this you would need to review all speed limit boundaries, extend 20 mph (32.19 km/h?) zones etc. so it is not as simple as a sign for sign replacement.</p>
<p>Foreign drivers (Ireland not withstanding Dave) already have to cope with driving on the &#8220;right&#8221; side of the road; signs in mph serve to remind them that they are in a foreign country.  I know this has helped me, in the reverse, when driving in france and faced with a funny looking &#8220;50&#8243; sign on the wrong side of the road&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Glass</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19790</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Glass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Sep 2009 17:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19790</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a pity that Northern Ireland can&#039;t move on metricating their road signs. What about the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Would any of them be interested in making a move?  They are not part of the United Kingdom, as far as I understand, and they might have more freedom of action in this matter</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a pity that Northern Ireland can&#8217;t move on metricating their road signs. What about the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. Would any of them be interested in making a move?  They are not part of the United Kingdom, as far as I understand, and they might have more freedom of action in this matter</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19789</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Aug 2009 03:52:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19789</guid>
		<description>Here is the timetable specified in the policy review:

Manage and deliver action plan work-streams – May 2009 to September 2010
Consultation on amendment regulations to TSRGD – September 2009
Review action plan – March 2010
Amendment regulations come in to force – April 2010 

The consultation on amendment regulations is scheduled to happen next month. Is there any role foreseen for UKMA or other like-minded bodies or individuals in this process?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is the timetable specified in the policy review:</p>
<p>Manage and deliver action plan work-streams – May 2009 to September 2010<br />
Consultation on amendment regulations to TSRGD – September 2009<br />
Review action plan – March 2010<br />
Amendment regulations come in to force – April 2010 </p>
<p>The consultation on amendment regulations is scheduled to happen next month. Is there any role foreseen for UKMA or other like-minded bodies or individuals in this process?</p>
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		<title>By: David Newberry</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19778</link>
		<dc:creator>David Newberry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 12:08:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I lived in Ireland during the changeover from miles to km. It took about 20 seconds to get used to the system on a practical level. The yard is practically a dead measurement in Ireland, after a few months most people (aside from the elderly) and the media referred to kilometres rather than miles. The same would happen in Britain, once the signage is changed, that would be that. I also note the travel industry is very metric, is that because most people who work in it are young? Baggage is weighed by the kilo, measured by the cm and it was always 1000 mL in 1 Litre (10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm) bags! Happily I now live in Australia, English speaking and one of the most metric countries in the world. It&#039;s wonderful to use my British metric education in a metric country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I lived in Ireland during the changeover from miles to km. It took about 20 seconds to get used to the system on a practical level. The yard is practically a dead measurement in Ireland, after a few months most people (aside from the elderly) and the media referred to kilometres rather than miles. The same would happen in Britain, once the signage is changed, that would be that. I also note the travel industry is very metric, is that because most people who work in it are young? Baggage is weighed by the kilo, measured by the cm and it was always 1000 mL in 1 Litre (10 cm x 10 cm x 10 cm) bags! Happily I now live in Australia, English speaking and one of the most metric countries in the world. It&#8217;s wonderful to use my British metric education in a metric country.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19777</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 21:01:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19777</guid>
		<description>Excellent information shared and points made here.

In addition to (or related to) all of the above, there is the question of funds and budget. On the one hand, I don&#039;t know if Scotland has its own budget for road sign maintenance and replacement. On the other hand, there should be plenty of incentive to save the money now wasted repairing bridges that have been struck because of Imperial height restriction signs that Continental drivers of lorries fail to properly understand.

Since signs must be replaced over time anyway, replacing signs in a phased manner with Imperial decal overlays has been proposed (I presume) many times. On &quot;M weekend&quot; all of the overlays could be removed and --- presto! --- all road signs would thenceforth be exclusively metric.

As Shakespeare wrote for King Henry: &quot;Once more unto the breach!&quot; The DfT may ignore UKMA, but I sincerely doubt UKMA will ignore them. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent information shared and points made here.</p>
<p>In addition to (or related to) all of the above, there is the question of funds and budget. On the one hand, I don&#8217;t know if Scotland has its own budget for road sign maintenance and replacement. On the other hand, there should be plenty of incentive to save the money now wasted repairing bridges that have been struck because of Imperial height restriction signs that Continental drivers of lorries fail to properly understand.</p>
<p>Since signs must be replaced over time anyway, replacing signs in a phased manner with Imperial decal overlays has been proposed (I presume) many times. On &#8220;M weekend&#8221; all of the overlays could be removed and &#8212; presto! &#8212; all road signs would thenceforth be exclusively metric.</p>
<p>As Shakespeare wrote for King Henry: &#8220;Once more unto the breach!&#8221; The DfT may ignore UKMA, but I sincerely doubt UKMA will ignore them. <img src='http://metricviews.org.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19776</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 12:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19776</guid>
		<description>Why does Northern Ireland have to be the first?  Why not Scotland?  Wouldn&#039;t Scotland with its more independent attitude be the best candidate to change their signs?  

I&#039;ve seen pictures on another website of informational road signs already in metric with no complaints or vandalism.  It seems the people of Scotland are not bothered by metric informational signs along the roads and may be even in favour of them.  

Scotland could defy the law and change their signs and what could anyone outside of of Scotland really do?  Then once it is seen that the metric road signs in Scotland pose no problems or were never costly to implement, then Northern Ireland and Wales could follow the Scottish example.

The biggest advantage to the completion of metrication of British roads would be the cars.  Since the British drive on the left, as do the Irish and many Asian &amp; African countries, there would be a huge cost savings in the sale and trade of automobiles from the rest of the left driving world and the UK.  Presently cars made for the UK have to have a special display unit which adds cost.  Second hand cars entering the UK have to be modified at a cost to comply to British law.  These costs add up and would be over time much greater then the cost of changing signs.  The cost of changing signs is a one time deal.  The cost of changing or having a special display is continuous.   Does anyone ever look at this factor?

Another issue is the safety issue with foreign drivers.  Does there have to be a major accident that takes hundreds of lives before someone sees the nonsense of being different then your neighbours?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does Northern Ireland have to be the first?  Why not Scotland?  Wouldn&#8217;t Scotland with its more independent attitude be the best candidate to change their signs?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen pictures on another website of informational road signs already in metric with no complaints or vandalism.  It seems the people of Scotland are not bothered by metric informational signs along the roads and may be even in favour of them.  </p>
<p>Scotland could defy the law and change their signs and what could anyone outside of of Scotland really do?  Then once it is seen that the metric road signs in Scotland pose no problems or were never costly to implement, then Northern Ireland and Wales could follow the Scottish example.</p>
<p>The biggest advantage to the completion of metrication of British roads would be the cars.  Since the British drive on the left, as do the Irish and many Asian &amp; African countries, there would be a huge cost savings in the sale and trade of automobiles from the rest of the left driving world and the UK.  Presently cars made for the UK have to have a special display unit which adds cost.  Second hand cars entering the UK have to be modified at a cost to comply to British law.  These costs add up and would be over time much greater then the cost of changing signs.  The cost of changing signs is a one time deal.  The cost of changing or having a special display is continuous.   Does anyone ever look at this factor?</p>
<p>Another issue is the safety issue with foreign drivers.  Does there have to be a major accident that takes hundreds of lives before someone sees the nonsense of being different then your neighbours?</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Paice</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19775</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Paice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 21:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19775</guid>
		<description>In response to Alex and Tom, the position is that we wrote to the NI Minister, Conor Murphy (SF) in 2007.  After a long delay, a reply was received from the Acting Chief Executive of the NI Roads Service.  I quote an extract:

&quot;.... there were some legal issues which required clarification.

As you correctly point out, the responsibility for traffic signs policy in NI is a devolved matter. However, as outlined in Mr Woodward&#039;s letter of 1 March 2006, the metrication issue is a matter of national interest and hence the responsibility of the UK Government.  This is reinforced in the fact that &quot;units of measurement&quot; and &quot;UK Primary Standards&quot; are reserved matters under the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

I am advised that the UK Government has no plans to change distance measurement and speed limits on traffic signs to metric units.  Unless and until the UK Government&#039;s position on this issue changes, distance measurement and speed limits on traffic signs in NI will remain in imperial units.&quot;

I agree with Alex that the DfT is implacably opposed to metrication - primarily because they see it as an incursion into their budget that has little to do with their narrow transport objectives.  The fact that it screws up the UK&#039;s measurement system is of no concern to them.  The problem lies in the failure at the very top of Government (i.e. in the Cabinet Office) to recognise that the measurement issue cuts across Government and should be taken out of the hands of individual Departments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Alex and Tom, the position is that we wrote to the NI Minister, Conor Murphy (SF) in 2007.  After a long delay, a reply was received from the Acting Chief Executive of the NI Roads Service.  I quote an extract:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;. there were some legal issues which required clarification.</p>
<p>As you correctly point out, the responsibility for traffic signs policy in NI is a devolved matter. However, as outlined in Mr Woodward&#8217;s letter of 1 March 2006, the metrication issue is a matter of national interest and hence the responsibility of the UK Government.  This is reinforced in the fact that &#8220;units of measurement&#8221; and &#8220;UK Primary Standards&#8221; are reserved matters under the Northern Ireland Act 1998.</p>
<p>I am advised that the UK Government has no plans to change distance measurement and speed limits on traffic signs to metric units.  Unless and until the UK Government&#8217;s position on this issue changes, distance measurement and speed limits on traffic signs in NI will remain in imperial units.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree with Alex that the DfT is implacably opposed to metrication &#8211; primarily because they see it as an incursion into their budget that has little to do with their narrow transport objectives.  The fact that it screws up the UK&#8217;s measurement system is of no concern to them.  The problem lies in the failure at the very top of Government (i.e. in the Cabinet Office) to recognise that the measurement issue cuts across Government and should be taken out of the hands of individual Departments.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Lundberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19774</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Lundberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 19:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19774</guid>
		<description>Does the above comment mean that the NI Government has actually investigated the possibility of converting the signs? If so, that is quite interesting. I would expect that at least the NI civil service would consider the safety implications of using different measurement units from those in the Republic, coupled with the lack of a &#039;fenced off&#039; border to alert drivers (as in the case of the US land borders with Canada and Mexico), but I would expect that the more hardcore Unionists would oppose any change. I had not heard anything about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does the above comment mean that the NI Government has actually investigated the possibility of converting the signs? If so, that is quite interesting. I would expect that at least the NI civil service would consider the safety implications of using different measurement units from those in the Republic, coupled with the lack of a &#8216;fenced off&#8217; border to alert drivers (as in the case of the US land borders with Canada and Mexico), but I would expect that the more hardcore Unionists would oppose any change. I had not heard anything about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex Bailey</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19773</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex Bailey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:07:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19773</guid>
		<description>Interesting legal advice Robin. Are there any laws with regard to measurement units (other than TSGRD itself or the Irish version) that specifically prohibit the use of metric units? Surely the clauses that relate to this only allow the continuing use of inch, foot, yard and mile but don&#039;t specifically prohibit the use of metric.

Given the DfT&#039;s unwillingness to include UKMA in the discussions about road signs it&#039;s sounding as if somebody at the top is making a great deal of effort to remove any mere suggestion of metrication out of future road policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting legal advice Robin. Are there any laws with regard to measurement units (other than TSGRD itself or the Irish version) that specifically prohibit the use of metric units? Surely the clauses that relate to this only allow the continuing use of inch, foot, yard and mile but don&#8217;t specifically prohibit the use of metric.</p>
<p>Given the DfT&#8217;s unwillingness to include UKMA in the discussions about road signs it&#8217;s sounding as if somebody at the top is making a great deal of effort to remove any mere suggestion of metrication out of future road policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Paice</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/06/traffic-signs-review-produces-inaction-plan-2/comment-page-1/#comment-19769</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Paice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jul 2009 07:18:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/?p=363#comment-19769</guid>
		<description>Mark, the position is that traffic signs are a devolved matter in NI, but measurement units are not.  So NI has its own version of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD), which closely follows the GB version.  However, the Units of Measurement Regulations apply to the whole of the UK, and the NI Government has received legal advice that they have no discretion to use metric units on the signs.  This has not been tested in the Courts, so is only a legal &quot;opinion&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, the position is that traffic signs are a devolved matter in NI, but measurement units are not.  So NI has its own version of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD), which closely follows the GB version.  However, the Units of Measurement Regulations apply to the whole of the UK, and the NI Government has received legal advice that they have no discretion to use metric units on the signs.  This has not been tested in the Courts, so is only a legal &#8220;opinion&#8221;.</p>
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