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	<title>Comments on: &#8216;User-Friendly&#8217; metric</title>
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	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: Michael Glass</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-19067</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Glass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:25:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-19067</guid>
		<description>In Australia we refer to kilometres as &#039;k&#039;s. So, it&#039;s about 880 ks from Sydney to Melbourne. People refer to their weight in kilos. Very few bother with stones and pounds any more. A decreasing number of people give their height in feet and inches and I think most people do know their height in centimetres, if only from their passport. Distances in yards have been replaced with metres but for shorter distances, some people still use feet. For distances, many people give an estimate of how much time it will take to get there, so something might be described as 5 minutes down the road by car, or a 15 minute walk.

When I go shopping I might buy a couple of litres of juice, a kilo of rice and a 500 grams of frozen peas. Many packet sizes have been converted to convenient metric sizes, and so you can get a 10 kilo sack of potatoes or onions, a couple of kilos of rice, a litre of milk and 300g of fancy cheese. We have no problems with the metric system in everyday life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Australia we refer to kilometres as &#8216;k&#8217;s. So, it&#8217;s about 880 ks from Sydney to Melbourne. People refer to their weight in kilos. Very few bother with stones and pounds any more. A decreasing number of people give their height in feet and inches and I think most people do know their height in centimetres, if only from their passport. Distances in yards have been replaced with metres but for shorter distances, some people still use feet. For distances, many people give an estimate of how much time it will take to get there, so something might be described as 5 minutes down the road by car, or a 15 minute walk.</p>
<p>When I go shopping I might buy a couple of litres of juice, a kilo of rice and a 500 grams of frozen peas. Many packet sizes have been converted to convenient metric sizes, and so you can get a 10 kilo sack of potatoes or onions, a couple of kilos of rice, a litre of milk and 300g of fancy cheese. We have no problems with the metric system in everyday life.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18822</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18822</guid>
		<description>An interesting post John.
However we are moving towards what may be the nub of the issue.
After the second world war both the UK Labour and Conservative parties had in excess of 2 million members.
The last figures I have showed that Labour now have circa 170 - 180,000 members and the Conservatives 200,000.
Put simply, it would be very difficult for either party to survive on their members subscriptions.
Which is where mega-donors come in. Without naming them, one peer of the realm has put Â£11 million into the labour party. Another a similar figure into the conservative party.
There is a very apposite old saying &quot;He who pays the piper, calls the tune&quot;.

I feel we truly are living in a post-democratic age. The wishes of the electorate count for far less than the wishes of corporate capitalism; one of the greatest dangers we have in this country is how totally unrepresentative of the people our political parties are. There is a massive disconnect between the two.

Thank you for having the grace to concede that there is a world of difference in adapting to a situation you never wanted (metrication in Canada) and there being any popular enthusiasm for that situation in the first place.

(That isn&#039;t a sarcastic remark, btw, it&#039;s genuine).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting post John.<br />
However we are moving towards what may be the nub of the issue.<br />
After the second world war both the UK Labour and Conservative parties had in excess of 2 million members.<br />
The last figures I have showed that Labour now have circa 170 &#8211; 180,000 members and the Conservatives 200,000.<br />
Put simply, it would be very difficult for either party to survive on their members subscriptions.<br />
Which is where mega-donors come in. Without naming them, one peer of the realm has put Â£11 million into the labour party. Another a similar figure into the conservative party.<br />
There is a very apposite old saying &#8220;He who pays the piper, calls the tune&#8221;.</p>
<p>I feel we truly are living in a post-democratic age. The wishes of the electorate count for far less than the wishes of corporate capitalism; one of the greatest dangers we have in this country is how totally unrepresentative of the people our political parties are. There is a massive disconnect between the two.</p>
<p>Thank you for having the grace to concede that there is a world of difference in adapting to a situation you never wanted (metrication in Canada) and there being any popular enthusiasm for that situation in the first place.</p>
<p>(That isn&#8217;t a sarcastic remark, btw, it&#8217;s genuine).</p>
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		<title>By: John Frewen-Lord</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18715</link>
		<dc:creator>John Frewen-Lord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18715</guid>
		<description>Nick:

While &#039;big business&#039; may have been a driving force behind Australia&#039;s and Canada&#039;s conversion (I can speak for Canada, as I lived there at the time and sat on a sector conversion committee), it was far from being the only driving force.  In Canada&#039;s case, there were just as many big business reasons for NOT converting, due to its close proximity to, and huge trade with, the USA.

Notwithstanding what the driving forces were, democratic countries elect their governing representatives by popular vote, and then rely on those representatives to do what is best for both the individual and the country as a whole.  Obviously, there will be conflicts arising, and what&#039;s seen as best for one may not be best for the other.  When such a conflict arises, the duty of the politician is to do what is best for the country.

In Canada&#039;s case, politicians of all stripes truly felt that converting to the metric system was best for the country, even if it was unpopular with much of the electorate.  Any support from big business was merely a bonus, but was not the prime motivation.

I see nothing undemocratic in how Canada did it - far from it, and although not fully converted, few Canadians today would support a reversion to Imperial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nick:</p>
<p>While &#8216;big business&#8217; may have been a driving force behind Australia&#8217;s and Canada&#8217;s conversion (I can speak for Canada, as I lived there at the time and sat on a sector conversion committee), it was far from being the only driving force.  In Canada&#8217;s case, there were just as many big business reasons for NOT converting, due to its close proximity to, and huge trade with, the USA.</p>
<p>Notwithstanding what the driving forces were, democratic countries elect their governing representatives by popular vote, and then rely on those representatives to do what is best for both the individual and the country as a whole.  Obviously, there will be conflicts arising, and what&#8217;s seen as best for one may not be best for the other.  When such a conflict arises, the duty of the politician is to do what is best for the country.</p>
<p>In Canada&#8217;s case, politicians of all stripes truly felt that converting to the metric system was best for the country, even if it was unpopular with much of the electorate.  Any support from big business was merely a bonus, but was not the prime motivation.</p>
<p>I see nothing undemocratic in how Canada did it &#8211; far from it, and although not fully converted, few Canadians today would support a reversion to Imperial.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18604</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Feb 2009 21:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18604</guid>
		<description>In the 1950&#039;s big business decided that for their ease, there should be one system of measurement - the metric system.
The populations of countries that formerly used imperial measurements were given no choice; metric was imposed. Think Australia and Canada.

Guys, could it be that instead of espousing (as you see it) a logical and superior system of measurements, what you are actually espousing is the triumph of corporate capitalism over democracy?

Which is a horse of a different and far less appealling colour.

Fair?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the 1950&#8217;s big business decided that for their ease, there should be one system of measurement &#8211; the metric system.<br />
The populations of countries that formerly used imperial measurements were given no choice; metric was imposed. Think Australia and Canada.</p>
<p>Guys, could it be that instead of espousing (as you see it) a logical and superior system of measurements, what you are actually espousing is the triumph of corporate capitalism over democracy?</p>
<p>Which is a horse of a different and far less appealling colour.</p>
<p>Fair?</p>
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		<title>By: Blaise Egan</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18347</link>
		<dc:creator>Blaise Egan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:39:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18347</guid>
		<description>The expression &#039;klick&#039; (not &#039;click&#039;) for &#039;kilometre&#039;, originates with the US military. I came across it as a teenager in the &#039;60s in the books of Robert Heinlein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The expression &#8216;klick&#8217; (not &#8216;click&#8217;) for &#8216;kilometre&#8217;, originates with the US military. I came across it as a teenager in the &#8217;60s in the books of Robert Heinlein.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18262</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18262</guid>
		<description>FYI I have an Indian friend from Karalla who uses the abbreviations:

Kimmys, for Kms,

and 

Kaygees, for KG.

Its kinda cute, and I think its standard colloquialism in her region.

My Canadian friends did indeed say clicks, and I did too when working with them.

Sooner the better for Metric conversion I say.

Dave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI I have an Indian friend from Karalla who uses the abbreviations:</p>
<p>Kimmys, for Kms,</p>
<p>and </p>
<p>Kaygees, for KG.</p>
<p>Its kinda cute, and I think its standard colloquialism in her region.</p>
<p>My Canadian friends did indeed say clicks, and I did too when working with them.</p>
<p>Sooner the better for Metric conversion I say.</p>
<p>Dave.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Birkby</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18228</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Birkby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18228</guid>
		<description>The language isn&#039;t the issue. When using metaphors and such you thinking precisely that - of metaphors and not of measurement. Such expressions will continue, change or die, just as all items of language have always done and will always do.

The issue is very simple. At least in my personal experience of returning to the UK for four years after many metric years abroad, Britain has a half-baked &quot;system&quot; that allows people to be bloody-minded. I would ask for things in metric (having never previously shopped in anything other than that) and get replied to in imperial. Completing the metric changeover is the only answer, and the only way forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The language isn&#8217;t the issue. When using metaphors and such you thinking precisely that &#8211; of metaphors and not of measurement. Such expressions will continue, change or die, just as all items of language have always done and will always do.</p>
<p>The issue is very simple. At least in my personal experience of returning to the UK for four years after many metric years abroad, Britain has a half-baked &#8220;system&#8221; that allows people to be bloody-minded. I would ask for things in metric (having never previously shopped in anything other than that) and get replied to in imperial. Completing the metric changeover is the only answer, and the only way forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Vlietstra</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18222</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Vlietstra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18222</guid>
		<description>Lee Kelly wrote
&quot;Imagine the problems if metric was not invented, since every country, city, town, &amp; village had different ways of measuring even if the words are the same.â€?

This is exactly what the situation was in Continental Europe.  The Netherlands (including modern-day Belgium) ditched their system of measure which varied from city to city in 1820. 

The German Customs Union (Zollverein) introduced a level of standardisation (1 zollpfund = 500 g) in 1853 and the German Empire which was founded in 1871 introduced the full metric system in 1871. 

The Kingdom of Italy, which was formally constituted in 1871, uniting the northern Italian states, the Vatican states and the southern Italian states likewise adopted the metric system as their system of measure as part of their unification process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lee Kelly wrote<br />
&#8220;Imagine the problems if metric was not invented, since every country, city, town, &amp; village had different ways of measuring even if the words are the same.â€?</p>
<p>This is exactly what the situation was in Continental Europe.  The Netherlands (including modern-day Belgium) ditched their system of measure which varied from city to city in 1820. </p>
<p>The German Customs Union (Zollverein) introduced a level of standardisation (1 zollpfund = 500 g) in 1853 and the German Empire which was founded in 1871 introduced the full metric system in 1871. </p>
<p>The Kingdom of Italy, which was formally constituted in 1871, uniting the northern Italian states, the Vatican states and the southern Italian states likewise adopted the metric system as their system of measure as part of their unification process.</p>
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		<title>By: lee kelly</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18177</link>
		<dc:creator>lee kelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:26:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18177</guid>
		<description>I think people who don&#039;t want the metric system seem to forget the history of the imperial system, I bet if you went back in time to when the imperial(old) system was first invented you can garentee that people were against the imperial system. You see one day when the whole world (97% already do) is using the metric system we will all be I hope, we will all be laughing about the silly arguments all things change. Imagine the problems if metric was not invented, since every country, city, town,&amp; village had different ways of measuring even if the words are the same. I know that a kilo is still a kilo no matter where you are,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think people who don&#8217;t want the metric system seem to forget the history of the imperial system, I bet if you went back in time to when the imperial(old) system was first invented you can garentee that people were against the imperial system. You see one day when the whole world (97% already do) is using the metric system we will all be I hope, we will all be laughing about the silly arguments all things change. Imagine the problems if metric was not invented, since every country, city, town,&amp; village had different ways of measuring even if the words are the same. I know that a kilo is still a kilo no matter where you are,</p>
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		<title>By: David Brown</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/metric-user-friendly/comment-page-1/#comment-18175</link>
		<dc:creator>David Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2009/01/20/metric-user-friendly/#comment-18175</guid>
		<description>I do tend to be a &quot;purist&quot; with pedantic tendencies, but when it comes to millilitres and millimetres I find myself quite comfortable with the abbreviation &quot;mill&quot; for both.  Thus I would say that a tablespoon is &quot;fifteen mill&quot; and that the diameter of copper for domestic plumbing is also &quot;fifteen mill&quot;.  Of course I&#039;d never write it down like that - that&#039;s what mm and ml are for - but for conversational communication the context is normally clear and I&#039;ve never ended up with a tablespoon that&#039;s 15 mm long, or plumbing that only holds 15 ml of water.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do tend to be a &#8220;purist&#8221; with pedantic tendencies, but when it comes to millilitres and millimetres I find myself quite comfortable with the abbreviation &#8220;mill&#8221; for both.  Thus I would say that a tablespoon is &#8220;fifteen mill&#8221; and that the diameter of copper for domestic plumbing is also &#8220;fifteen mill&#8221;.  Of course I&#8217;d never write it down like that &#8211; that&#8217;s what mm and ml are for &#8211; but for conversational communication the context is normally clear and I&#8217;ve never ended up with a tablespoon that&#8217;s 15 mm long, or plumbing that only holds 15 ml of water.</p>
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