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	<title>Comments on: Hackney Council gets it right</title>
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	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: philh</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-17189</link>
		<dc:creator>philh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-17189</guid>
		<description>Whilst it may be true that complaints from the public oblige enforcement officers to investigate, enforcement of the law does not require such complaints before action can be taken.
For example if a trader is found to be giving short measure from trial purchases then there is a clear obligation to act even though members of the public may not have noticed.
It remains to be seen whether the allegations of victimisation have any foundation. Personally I can&#039;t see why Hackney Council would be interested in doing so. Such claims would on the other hand be a very convenient ploy for someone trying to appeal against a conviction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst it may be true that complaints from the public oblige enforcement officers to investigate, enforcement of the law does not require such complaints before action can be taken.<br />
For example if a trader is found to be giving short measure from trial purchases then there is a clear obligation to act even though members of the public may not have noticed.<br />
It remains to be seen whether the allegations of victimisation have any foundation. Personally I can&#8217;t see why Hackney Council would be interested in doing so. Such claims would on the other hand be a very convenient ploy for someone trying to appeal against a conviction.</p>
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		<title>By: laura</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-17188</link>
		<dc:creator>laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-17188</guid>
		<description>Perhaps we should reevaluate this in the light of recent whistleblowers claiming Hackney were deliberately targeting Colin Hunt and his family and ignoring other market traders. The oft quoted Lacors Guidance does not sanction victimisation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps we should reevaluate this in the light of recent whistleblowers claiming Hackney were deliberately targeting Colin Hunt and his family and ignoring other market traders. The oft quoted Lacors Guidance does not sanction victimisation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-16203</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 08:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-16203</guid>
		<description>Sadly, the BBC web site reports that the government is planning to establish guidelines to discourage TSOs (and presumably Councils) from doing what Hackney Council has done.  Ms. Devers is thus likely to be allowed to continue to do exactly what she was doing all along.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;[Don&#039;t jump to conclusions. The BBC report may not be accurate, as it makes no sense.Â  The Minister cannot change the law, nor can he require TSOs not to enforce the law.Â  Guidance issued by LACORS already recommends that enforcement action should be &quot;proportionate&quot; (who would advocate &quot;disproportionate&quot; action?).&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;So it may just be the usual cynical media spin on a non-event. - Ed] &lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sadly, the BBC web site reports that the government is planning to establish guidelines to discourage TSOs (and presumably Councils) from doing what Hackney Council has done.  Ms. Devers is thus likely to be allowed to continue to do exactly what she was doing all along.</p>
<p><a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm</a></p>
<blockquote><p><em>[Don't jump to conclusions. The BBC report may not be accurate, as it makes no sense.Â  The Minister cannot change the law, nor can he require TSOs not to enforce the law.Â  Guidance issued by LACORS already recommends that enforcement action should be "proportionate" (who would advocate "disproportionate" action?).</em></p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p><em>So it may just be the usual cynical media spin on a non-event. - Ed] </em></p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Han Maenen</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-16191</link>
		<dc:creator>Han Maenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Oct 2008 14:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-16191</guid>
		<description>I just read something that is of interest to UKMA. The British Government wants to go soft on Metric Martyrs in the future.
See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read something that is of interest to UKMA. The British Government wants to go soft on Metric Martyrs in the future.<br />
See: <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm" rel="nofollow">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7677438.stm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tim Bentley</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-16069</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Bentley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 19:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-16069</guid>
		<description>In response to Han Maenen

I think the authorities were in error,they should have come down on the bakers like a &#039;tonne&#039; of bricks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Han Maenen</p>
<p>I think the authorities were in error,they should have come down on the bakers like a &#8216;tonne&#8217; of bricks!</p>
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		<title>By: Han Maenen</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-15968</link>
		<dc:creator>Han Maenen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-15968</guid>
		<description>I wonder why Tabitha wants to be able to buy &#039;tubs&#039; of produce. A tub can be everything and you can be cheated by it big time. Using unstamped scales and weights can also cost you, as they grow more and more inaccurate as time goes by.

Something else about these &#039;wonderful&#039; measures.In a number of US states the so-called &#039;commercial acre&#039; is recognized as a measuring unit. It measures only 36 000 ft&lt;sup&gt;2&lt;/sup&gt; or 0.334 ha. So watch out when you want to buy land in the USA! When a number of years ago Spanish bakers attempted to sell &#039;kilograms&#039; of bread weighing 900 g, the authorities came down on them like a ton of bricks. Or should these bakers have been allowed to do this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder why Tabitha wants to be able to buy &#8216;tubs&#8217; of produce. A tub can be everything and you can be cheated by it big time. Using unstamped scales and weights can also cost you, as they grow more and more inaccurate as time goes by.</p>
<p>Something else about these &#8216;wonderful&#8217; measures.In a number of US states the so-called &#8216;commercial acre&#8217; is recognized as a measuring unit. It measures only 36 000 ft<sup>2</sup> or 0.334 ha. So watch out when you want to buy land in the USA! When a number of years ago Spanish bakers attempted to sell &#8216;kilograms&#8217; of bread weighing 900 g, the authorities came down on them like a ton of bricks. Or should these bakers have been allowed to do this?</p>
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		<title>By: DM</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-15959</link>
		<dc:creator>DM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-15959</guid>
		<description>I recall some years ago seeing a centre spread in the Ilford Recorder over Mrs Devers brother Colin Hunt?
They Clearly showed this trader displaying signs for his produce in price per LB only   -   BUT He was using price per KG scales !!
 
Now get this,  if you are very handy with maths and a customer self selects a quantity of produce and takes it in the bag to be price weighed in price per Kg how does that customer know the correct price per KG has been entered? The customer doesn,t and far be it from me to allegedly state that higher pricing per Kg were entered, than the equivelent of price per Lb on display, but I see no reason to do that other than the possibilty to accidentally defrauding that customer !!  QED.
 
This lost cause by UKIP and the Metric Martyrs and the British Weights and Measures group run by one man - has taken a huge amount of effort time and money, wasted police and trading standards, and  the courts resources  and as Tabitha states it clearly - but then who has been wasting everyones time? I would put it to you Tabitha -  the traders, certainly not the public and certainly not the highly qualified metrology officers of Trading Standards who after all are the servants of the people ensuring a fair and level playing field for all.
This 10 year battle for the last remaining few who want to insist on fighting progress, uder the banner of what!? escapes me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recall some years ago seeing a centre spread in the Ilford Recorder over Mrs Devers brother Colin Hunt?<br />
They Clearly showed this trader displaying signs for his produce in price per LB only   &#8211;   BUT He was using price per KG scales !!</p>
<p>Now get this,  if you are very handy with maths and a customer self selects a quantity of produce and takes it in the bag to be price weighed in price per Kg how does that customer know the correct price per KG has been entered? The customer doesn,t and far be it from me to allegedly state that higher pricing per Kg were entered, than the equivelent of price per Lb on display, but I see no reason to do that other than the possibilty to accidentally defrauding that customer !!  QED.</p>
<p>This lost cause by UKIP and the Metric Martyrs and the British Weights and Measures group run by one man &#8211; has taken a huge amount of effort time and money, wasted police and trading standards, and  the courts resources  and as Tabitha states it clearly &#8211; but then who has been wasting everyones time? I would put it to you Tabitha &#8211;  the traders, certainly not the public and certainly not the highly qualified metrology officers of Trading Standards who after all are the servants of the people ensuring a fair and level playing field for all.<br />
This 10 year battle for the last remaining few who want to insist on fighting progress, uder the banner of what!? escapes me.</p>
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		<title>By: Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-15944</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-15944</guid>
		<description>Kudos to the author of the article for doing a masterful job of properly reframing the issue (see the works of Dr. George Lakoff, U of California, Berkeley for more on framing). Let us hope that more of the public will appreciate the issues as the article presents them.

I also got to learn about the acronym &quot;bogof&quot; (which I have never heard here in the States but looked up via Google :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kudos to the author of the article for doing a masterful job of properly reframing the issue (see the works of Dr. George Lakoff, U of California, Berkeley for more on framing). Let us hope that more of the public will appreciate the issues as the article presents them.</p>
<p>I also got to learn about the acronym &#8220;bogof&#8221; (which I have never heard here in the States but looked up via Google <img src='http://metricviews.org.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Martin Vlietstra</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-15936</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Vlietstra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 18:58:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-15936</guid>
		<description>Tabitha,

In case you did not read the comments on the Daily Telegraph website, (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/12/dl1203.xml) may I take the liberty of reproducing my posting there:

&quot;In order to preserve a level playing field, the Government has rightly prescribed certain terminology that may and may not be used when traders describe their wares. In particular, the Government has seen fit to require traders to price many types of fruit and vegetables by the kilogram, not by the bowl, the pound or any other unit. These rules apply equally to Fortum and Mason, to Harrods, to Tesco and to street market traders. Why does Mrs Devers try to claim exemption from these rules? What is she trying to hide?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tabitha,</p>
<p>In case you did not read the comments on the Daily Telegraph website, (<a href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/12/dl1203.xml" rel="nofollow">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/10/12/dl1203.xml</a>) may I take the liberty of reproducing my posting there:</p>
<p>&#8220;In order to preserve a level playing field, the Government has rightly prescribed certain terminology that may and may not be used when traders describe their wares. In particular, the Government has seen fit to require traders to price many types of fruit and vegetables by the kilogram, not by the bowl, the pound or any other unit. These rules apply equally to Fortum and Mason, to Harrods, to Tesco and to street market traders. Why does Mrs Devers try to claim exemption from these rules? What is she trying to hide?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/hackney-council-gets-it-right/comment-page-1/#comment-15933</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 13:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2008/10/09/hackney-council-gets-it-right/#comment-15933</guid>
		<description>Historically it has been shown that imperial in all its variations have appeared to be user friendly with appealing sizes and cutesy names, but in reality the collection of units have been used to cheat and defraud.

Wall Street for decades has been fighting to be deregulated in an effort to keep big government out of their business.  These past few weeks we have seen the results of what deregulation, no government interference and do what you want accomplishes.  The stock market crash and losses of trillions in investors funds shows what happens when there are no rules.

If the remnant imperialists got their way the market place would be flooded with cheating and fraud and there would be nothing the consumer could do to protect themselves.  Thus it is in the best interests of everyone to have rules for what units are to be used and to prosecute those who try to flout the rules.  It is not a waste of police time to enforce the metric rules.  It is a waste of police time when some think they are above the lawÂ  and the police have to do their job to protect the consumers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historically it has been shown that imperial in all its variations have appeared to be user friendly with appealing sizes and cutesy names, but in reality the collection of units have been used to cheat and defraud.</p>
<p>Wall Street for decades has been fighting to be deregulated in an effort to keep big government out of their business.  These past few weeks we have seen the results of what deregulation, no government interference and do what you want accomplishes.  The stock market crash and losses of trillions in investors funds shows what happens when there are no rules.</p>
<p>If the remnant imperialists got their way the market place would be flooded with cheating and fraud and there would be nothing the consumer could do to protect themselves.  Thus it is in the best interests of everyone to have rules for what units are to be used and to prosecute those who try to flout the rules.  It is not a waste of police time to enforce the metric rules.  It is a waste of police time when some think they are above the lawÂ  and the police have to do their job to protect the consumers.</p>
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