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	<title>Comments on: Boeing&#8217;s Dreamliner &#8211; grounded by US units of measurement?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/</link>
	<description>Commentary on the measurement muddle in the UK</description>
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		<title>By: Ezra Steinberg</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-23676</link>
		<dc:creator>Ezra Steinberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2011 17:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-23676</guid>
		<description>The post from gela@ effectively makes the point (as UKMA have often said) that the country needs to adopt and use a single coherent system of measurement (that is truly a &lt;i&gt;system&lt;/i&gt;, namely, the SI.

One can only imagine how much numeracy would improve in the UK if the metric muddle were finally resolved in favour of pure SI.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The post from gela@ effectively makes the point (as UKMA have often said) that the country needs to adopt and use a single coherent system of measurement (that is truly a <i>system</i>, namely, the SI.</p>
<p>One can only imagine how much numeracy would improve in the UK if the metric muddle were finally resolved in favour of pure SI.</p>
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		<title>By: gela</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-23669</link>
		<dc:creator>gela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-23669</guid>
		<description>Difference between quantities of measuring units is easily overcoming by the appropriate coefficient, for example: 1 inch = 25.4 mm. and it&#039;s OK. But what about derived units, for example &quot;miles per hour&quot;?  and could it be considered as unit of speed? From school&#039;s physics, we know that the speed is derivative of distance by the time. so it would be measured in units such mile in a hour (mile/hour). Otherwise we can try to subvert entire mathematics and physics trying to find a limit of distance per time when the time tends to zero but it is obvious that this attempt will result zero and therefore such concept has no meaning or utility, the same consideration may be done on other units: &quot;gallon per minute&quot;, &quot;revolutions per minutes&quot; and so on. These units can result confusing. Another strange thing: the units of measure would be used to measure things or quantities and not viceversa, for example, in metric system the pitch of threads are measured in millimeters. English systems the thread&#039;s pitch are used to measure one inch: threads per inch. So, some times inch is used to measure and some times to be measured.
The systems of measure used in twenty-first century should be more coherent and precise at least in their principles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Difference between quantities of measuring units is easily overcoming by the appropriate coefficient, for example: 1 inch = 25.4 mm. and it&#8217;s OK. But what about derived units, for example &#8220;miles per hour&#8221;?  and could it be considered as unit of speed? From school&#8217;s physics, we know that the speed is derivative of distance by the time. so it would be measured in units such mile in a hour (mile/hour). Otherwise we can try to subvert entire mathematics and physics trying to find a limit of distance per time when the time tends to zero but it is obvious that this attempt will result zero and therefore such concept has no meaning or utility, the same consideration may be done on other units: &#8220;gallon per minute&#8221;, &#8220;revolutions per minutes&#8221; and so on. These units can result confusing. Another strange thing: the units of measure would be used to measure things or quantities and not viceversa, for example, in metric system the pitch of threads are measured in millimeters. English systems the thread&#8217;s pitch are used to measure one inch: threads per inch. So, some times inch is used to measure and some times to be measured.<br />
The systems of measure used in twenty-first century should be more coherent and precise at least in their principles.</p>
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		<title>By: eric burns</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-23578</link>
		<dc:creator>eric burns</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Oct 2011 12:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-23578</guid>
		<description>With America&#039;s inch dominated industrial base steadily shrinking and metric countries output rising, the future  for Americans does not look all that bright. Confirming this scenario is the prediction that a metric hating Republican President will do his &quot;best&quot; to perpetuate American &quot;values&quot; medieval measurements included. Maybe the land of the free has to hit rock bottom before it sees the errors of its ways? Hindsight will tell them eventually where they went wrong, but as so often in human affairs, by then it will be too late.  
For anyone interested here is my original post to the Seattle Times no longer accessible on this link:
http://gometric.us/jforum/posts/list/108.page
In reply to Dominic Gates article in the Seattle Times on 1 November 2007.

&quot;This is an interesting article for one reason only; Boeing blames everybody else, but its management for the initial 6 months delay. Its by now replaced Vice President Bair asserts that some international suppliers contracted to design and manufacture sections for the Dreamliner are incapable of doing it. “They just could not do what we thought they could, said Bair. Some of the major airframe partners on the Dreamliner have performed so poorly that Boeing won’t probably use them on future programs, he said”.
What extraordinary statements to make! Did they not vet these companies properly before entrusting them with such demanding work? If not, who is to blame? The major metric companies, Alenia of Italy; Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki of Japan chosen to do this work are no backyard operators and know what they are doing. 
Taking that into account one cannot help but think how much cumbersome old units contributed to this delay? One can well imagine metric designers and engineers struggling with units they have no feel for nor make sense to people used to simple mm. 
If this is the case, Boeing blew the first billion dollars just to learn the obvious truth that metric users find medieval units cumbersome to work with. This is truly a high price to pay for obstinacy/arrogance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With America&#8217;s inch dominated industrial base steadily shrinking and metric countries output rising, the future  for Americans does not look all that bright. Confirming this scenario is the prediction that a metric hating Republican President will do his &#8220;best&#8221; to perpetuate American &#8220;values&#8221; medieval measurements included. Maybe the land of the free has to hit rock bottom before it sees the errors of its ways? Hindsight will tell them eventually where they went wrong, but as so often in human affairs, by then it will be too late.<br />
For anyone interested here is my original post to the Seattle Times no longer accessible on this link:<br />
<a href="http://gometric.us/jforum/posts/list/108.page" rel="nofollow">http://gometric.us/jforum/posts/list/108.page</a><br />
In reply to Dominic Gates article in the Seattle Times on 1 November 2007.</p>
<p>&#8220;This is an interesting article for one reason only; Boeing blames everybody else, but its management for the initial 6 months delay. Its by now replaced Vice President Bair asserts that some international suppliers contracted to design and manufacture sections for the Dreamliner are incapable of doing it. “They just could not do what we thought they could, said Bair. Some of the major airframe partners on the Dreamliner have performed so poorly that Boeing won’t probably use them on future programs, he said”.<br />
What extraordinary statements to make! Did they not vet these companies properly before entrusting them with such demanding work? If not, who is to blame? The major metric companies, Alenia of Italy; Mitsubishi, Fuji and Kawasaki of Japan chosen to do this work are no backyard operators and know what they are doing.<br />
Taking that into account one cannot help but think how much cumbersome old units contributed to this delay? One can well imagine metric designers and engineers struggling with units they have no feel for nor make sense to people used to simple mm.<br />
If this is the case, Boeing blew the first billion dollars just to learn the obvious truth that metric users find medieval units cumbersome to work with. This is truly a high price to pay for obstinacy/arrogance.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang Weiss</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-22767</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang Weiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Apr 2011 00:09:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-22767</guid>
		<description>Dear U.S. Metric Fans,

You would not believe, but the majority of the structural threaded fasteners (bolts, screws, nuts) in the Airbus are in U.S customary dimensional units (a.k.a. &quot;inches&quot;).

Surprised?

(The Editor comments:

In 1949, Canada, the UK and the US adopted the inch-based Unified Thread Standard (UTS), which was intended to replace, among others, the BS Whitworth and the US Sellers threads.  A driver of this change was the problem resulting from lack of interchangeability of equipment among the Allies in the WW2. ISO metric threads have now replaced Unified in most industries around the world, but it would appear that US dominance of the aerospace industry has ensured that Unified maintains a presence there.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear U.S. Metric Fans,</p>
<p>You would not believe, but the majority of the structural threaded fasteners (bolts, screws, nuts) in the Airbus are in U.S customary dimensional units (a.k.a. &#8220;inches&#8221;).</p>
<p>Surprised?</p>
<p>(The Editor comments:</p>
<p>In 1949, Canada, the UK and the US adopted the inch-based Unified Thread Standard (UTS), which was intended to replace, among others, the BS Whitworth and the US Sellers threads.  A driver of this change was the problem resulting from lack of interchangeability of equipment among the Allies in the WW2. ISO metric threads have now replaced Unified in most industries around the world, but it would appear that US dominance of the aerospace industry has ensured that Unified maintains a presence there.)</p>
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		<title>By: Karthik</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-22655</link>
		<dc:creator>Karthik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Mar 2011 04:49:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-22655</guid>
		<description>CATIA -- you don&#039;t swap mid design, but instead, on new aircraft.  The 747-8 would remain imperial, as much of the design is a holdover from the 747-1..400.  On the other hand, the 787 should have been designed in metric.  New fuselage (even the materials are new!), new engines, new avionics, new interior, new landing gears ...... you don&#039;t re-certify something you have never certified before.  You certify it for the first time, and doing it in metric takes the same amount of time as doing it in imperial.  

In fact you probably drive costs down.  Fasteners on the A350 are likely to be the same size as those on the 787.  So, suppliers can concentrate on one line instead of two.

Source: I work in the Aerospace industry as an engineer who has worked in both metric and imperial units.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CATIA &#8212; you don&#8217;t swap mid design, but instead, on new aircraft.  The 747-8 would remain imperial, as much of the design is a holdover from the 747-1..400.  On the other hand, the 787 should have been designed in metric.  New fuselage (even the materials are new!), new engines, new avionics, new interior, new landing gears &#8230;&#8230; you don&#8217;t re-certify something you have never certified before.  You certify it for the first time, and doing it in metric takes the same amount of time as doing it in imperial.  </p>
<p>In fact you probably drive costs down.  Fasteners on the A350 are likely to be the same size as those on the 787.  So, suppliers can concentrate on one line instead of two.</p>
<p>Source: I work in the Aerospace industry as an engineer who has worked in both metric and imperial units.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Glass</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-20265</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Glass</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 04:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-20265</guid>
		<description>&quot;Then go ask the airlines if they are willing to live with two sets of system (standard for the older airplanes and metric for the new airplanes) you may not be able to sell them a metric airplane ever.&quot;

As Qantas flies both Airbus and Boeing planes http://www.qantas.com.au/freight/dyn/capacity/capacity I don&#039;t think that this problem is insuperable. 

Also, though I am no technician, if Airbus can produce aircraft with metric components, then the &quot;testing, documenting and certifying data and paperwork that come along with&quot;  the components must be at least partly in place.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Then go ask the airlines if they are willing to live with two sets of system (standard for the older airplanes and metric for the new airplanes) you may not be able to sell them a metric airplane ever.&#8221;</p>
<p>As Qantas flies both Airbus and Boeing planes <a href="http://www.qantas.com.au/freight/dyn/capacity/capacity" rel="nofollow">http://www.qantas.com.au/freight/dyn/capacity/capacity</a> I don&#8217;t think that this problem is insuperable. </p>
<p>Also, though I am no technician, if Airbus can produce aircraft with metric components, then the &#8220;testing, documenting and certifying data and paperwork that come along with&#8221;  the components must be at least partly in place.</p>
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		<title>By: John Steele</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-20263</link>
		<dc:creator>John Steele</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-20263</guid>
		<description>May I simply suggest that IF that were true, no airline would even consider operating a mix of Airbus and Boeing aircraft.

I&#039;m sure Boeing would prefer that, but that simply isn&#039;t the case.

I would suggest that if Boeing wants to stick to US Customary, it should stick entirely to US suppliers.  I worked in the automobile industry.  The big reason we converted to metric in the 70&#039;s was our own foreign operations and the worldwide supply base it opened to us.

Expecting people who don&#039;t understand Customary units (and that includes EVERYONE but the US, because Imperial is different) to successfully manufacture in Customary, meet QC in Customary, etc, is pretty naive and probably frought with folly.  Outsourcing and Customary just DON&#039;T go together, not well, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I simply suggest that IF that were true, no airline would even consider operating a mix of Airbus and Boeing aircraft.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure Boeing would prefer that, but that simply isn&#8217;t the case.</p>
<p>I would suggest that if Boeing wants to stick to US Customary, it should stick entirely to US suppliers.  I worked in the automobile industry.  The big reason we converted to metric in the 70&#8242;s was our own foreign operations and the worldwide supply base it opened to us.</p>
<p>Expecting people who don&#8217;t understand Customary units (and that includes EVERYONE but the US, because Imperial is different) to successfully manufacture in Customary, meet QC in Customary, etc, is pretty naive and probably frought with folly.  Outsourcing and Customary just DON&#8217;T go together, not well, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: CATIA Jockey</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-20262</link>
		<dc:creator>CATIA Jockey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-20262</guid>
		<description>I work in the aerospace industry as a lowly designer.
From my knot hole, I can say that it would take millions upon millions of dollars (if not more) to convert to metric fasteners for airplane design.

It&#039;s not a matter of swapping out the standard fastener with similar size metric fasteners (if they exists).  Each standard fastener type and size has an enormous amount of testing, documenting and certifying data and paperwork that come along with them.  Counting all the rivet, bolts, screws and mating part types that are used, the cost of converting over may even dwarf the US deficit!

Then go ask the airlines if they are willing to live with two sets of system (standard for the older airplanes and metric for the new airplanes) you may not be able to sell them a metric airplane ever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work in the aerospace industry as a lowly designer.<br />
From my knot hole, I can say that it would take millions upon millions of dollars (if not more) to convert to metric fasteners for airplane design.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not a matter of swapping out the standard fastener with similar size metric fasteners (if they exists).  Each standard fastener type and size has an enormous amount of testing, documenting and certifying data and paperwork that come along with them.  Counting all the rivet, bolts, screws and mating part types that are used, the cost of converting over may even dwarf the US deficit!</p>
<p>Then go ask the airlines if they are willing to live with two sets of system (standard for the older airplanes and metric for the new airplanes) you may not be able to sell them a metric airplane ever.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Dimmick</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-14071</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Dimmick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 19:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-14071</guid>
		<description>Historian,

The font example is actually quite interesting, because it historically reflected the size of the block on which the type was carved. It doesn&#039;t reflect the actual character height of the type. Two fonts of different faces, but the same nominal &#039;point size&#039; can be very different in height of actual characters, and even of spaced text.

The modern desktop publishing point of 1/72 of an inch was only fixed in the 1980s and is simply a rounding of the previous standard of 1/72.27 inches, to make it more amenable to computer software. (This comes from Adobe&#039;s PostScript; earlier rendering software such as the TeX system use the older standard).

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(typography).

However, I think this may be a unit so well entrenched in its field that it won&#039;t be amenable to metrication. It&#039;s rare that anyone actually wants to know how many lines of text of a given point size fit onto a sheet of paper in modern desktop publishing; changing the typeface will cause text to reflow in any case as the width of the characters, and the spacing between them, is different for each face (with rare examples where one font has been unnaturally forced into the metrics of another, e.g. Monotype Grotesque was distorted into Helvetica&#039;s character sizes to produce Arial).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Historian,</p>
<p>The font example is actually quite interesting, because it historically reflected the size of the block on which the type was carved. It doesn&#8217;t reflect the actual character height of the type. Two fonts of different faces, but the same nominal &#8216;point size&#8217; can be very different in height of actual characters, and even of spaced text.</p>
<p>The modern desktop publishing point of 1/72 of an inch was only fixed in the 1980s and is simply a rounding of the previous standard of 1/72.27 inches, to make it more amenable to computer software. (This comes from Adobe&#8217;s PostScript; earlier rendering software such as the TeX system use the older standard).</p>
<p>See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(typography)" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_(typography)</a>.</p>
<p>However, I think this may be a unit so well entrenched in its field that it won&#8217;t be amenable to metrication. It&#8217;s rare that anyone actually wants to know how many lines of text of a given point size fit onto a sheet of paper in modern desktop publishing; changing the typeface will cause text to reflow in any case as the width of the characters, and the spacing between them, is different for each face (with rare examples where one font has been unnaturally forced into the metrics of another, e.g. Monotype Grotesque was distorted into Helvetica&#8217;s character sizes to produce Arial).</p>
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		<title>By: Historian</title>
		<link>http://metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/boeing787-grounded/comment-page-1/#comment-13176</link>
		<dc:creator>Historian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.metricviews.org.uk/2007/11/07/boeing787-grounded/#comment-13176</guid>
		<description>Number of misconceptions.  Note: I&#039;m not defending the use of US units, but if you don&#039;t understand the landscape, then it&#039;s easy to laugh when you should instead cry.  I would be in favor of a metric calendar and metric clock, too, as long as it&#039;s better than the ones the French abandoned back then.

(1) US units are not &quot;Imperial&quot; in the common sense of Britain&#039;s 19th century third empire (India and Africa).  They instead derive from Britain&#039;s 18th century second empire (North America and Caribbean).  Although the length units are equivalent, the liquid units and dry volume units are often widely divergent from the Imperial units.  Imperial units were standardized after the US became independent, and the US standardized its own units separately from Britain.

(2) No disloyalty involved.  Mike is just being funny.  The controlling clause is &quot;except to the extent that such use is impractical,&quot; which is a loophole a mile (or approximately 1.6 kilometers) wide.  It&#039;s the same principle that allows US states to declare a budget emergency every year and override various budgeting restrictions continually so that they&#039;ve never been enforced.  Go find an average American on the street, and 90% of the time, they can&#039;t think metric except to the extent of a 2-liter bottle of cola.  Canadians find this very amusing every time they visit.

(3) US dominance in aviation has led to delayed metrication.    Flight levels are given in hundreds of feet to this day in most of the world, including in metric western Europe. (Not Russia, though.  Thank God, or at least Marx, for the Soviet Union?)  US insularity in defense spending has also delayed the impact of Airbus, while the auto industry&#039;s troubles with Japanese and German competition sped up their metrication.  There are other worldwide industries where US units are entrenched, such as publishing: 12-point font = 1/6 of an inch, even if you print stuff out on A paper sizes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Number of misconceptions.  Note: I&#8217;m not defending the use of US units, but if you don&#8217;t understand the landscape, then it&#8217;s easy to laugh when you should instead cry.  I would be in favor of a metric calendar and metric clock, too, as long as it&#8217;s better than the ones the French abandoned back then.</p>
<p>(1) US units are not &#8220;Imperial&#8221; in the common sense of Britain&#8217;s 19th century third empire (India and Africa).  They instead derive from Britain&#8217;s 18th century second empire (North America and Caribbean).  Although the length units are equivalent, the liquid units and dry volume units are often widely divergent from the Imperial units.  Imperial units were standardized after the US became independent, and the US standardized its own units separately from Britain.</p>
<p>(2) No disloyalty involved.  Mike is just being funny.  The controlling clause is &#8220;except to the extent that such use is impractical,&#8221; which is a loophole a mile (or approximately 1.6 kilometers) wide.  It&#8217;s the same principle that allows US states to declare a budget emergency every year and override various budgeting restrictions continually so that they&#8217;ve never been enforced.  Go find an average American on the street, and 90% of the time, they can&#8217;t think metric except to the extent of a 2-liter bottle of cola.  Canadians find this very amusing every time they visit.</p>
<p>(3) US dominance in aviation has led to delayed metrication.    Flight levels are given in hundreds of feet to this day in most of the world, including in metric western Europe. (Not Russia, though.  Thank God, or at least Marx, for the Soviet Union?)  US insularity in defense spending has also delayed the impact of Airbus, while the auto industry&#8217;s troubles with Japanese and German competition sped up their metrication.  There are other worldwide industries where US units are entrenched, such as publishing: 12-point font = 1/6 of an inch, even if you print stuff out on A paper sizes.</p>
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